Odd sword that sold at Dorotheum

[Iain]

Thought this would make an interesting discussion item, it sold earlier this month. Auction description lists 15th century European blade and 17th century central Asian hilt.

Blade has an inlaid cross while the hilt shows an interesting dragon motif on the tip of the remaining quillion.

[Iain]

Surprised this hasn't generated any interest.

For me, it looks to have Nasrid influence?

[Jim McDougall]

I agree Iain, this certainly does seem to reflect Nasrid influence, and though the hilting seems later than the blade, still appears reasonably early in this incarnation. It appears one of the downturned quillons is broken off in the 'revival' style context seen here, and the rather 'blockish' stylization of the dragon (makara) form recalls the Ottoman/Persian type influence often diffused into Central Asian regions.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I agree Iain, this certainly does seem to reflect Nasrid influence, and though the hilting seems later than the blade, still appears reasonably early in this incarnation. It appears one of the downturned quillons is broken off in the 'revival' style context seen here, and the rather 'blockish' stylization of the dragon (makara) form recalls the Ottoman/Persian type influence often diffused into Central Asian regions.

Salaams Iain and Jim ~ This looks like influence from the Schiavona in the pommel and hilt though strange cuff and quillons suggest something more like the Wallace style of cuff. The blade has the look of a Solingen. The turned down quillons in Naga form are a further puzzle; The style usually seen is at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17430 in the second picture on the left of view. This one seems to be earlier or older looking and not so rigid.

Possible Constantinople weapon?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain and Jim ~ This looks like influence from the Schiavona in the pommel and hilt though strange cuff and quillons suggest something more like the Wallace style of cuff. The blade has the look of a Solingen. The turned down quillons in Naga form are a further puzzle; The style usually seen is at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17430 in the second picture on the left of view. This one seems to be earlier or older looking and not so rigid.

Possible Constantinople weapon?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

There's nothing really schiavona like in the pommel in my view. It's not a "cat's head". It's a style of pommel known in the Oakeshott typology as Type I1, popular in the 14 and 15th centuries.

The blade could well be a German product although that's somewhat indeterminate from the imagery available. The auction house dating of 15th century seems plausible due the mark and style of inlay.

I wouldn't describe the quillions as "naga" that's a term related specifically to Buddhist and Hindu mythology. They are dragons from what we can see in the images. The arms and ornate collar are highly reminiscent of jineta. However the dragon form does point away from classical Nasrid designs.

In the image you linked - that's a Qajar revival piece from the 19th century.

The piece under discussion does not fit anything visible in the icongraphy or archeology of Byzantine or Trebizond that I'm aware of.


The Persian idea is interesting Jim, as I recall Chinese style dragons (as these seem to be from the head shape) started to be in vogue during the Timurid period.

The pommel looks potentially older than the rest of the hilt assembly to me...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

There's nothing really schiavona like in the pommel in my view. It's not a "cat's head". It's a style of pommel known in the Oakeshott typology as Type I1, popular in the 14 and 15th centuries.

The blade could well be a German product although that's somewhat indeterminate from the imagery available. The auction house dating of 15th century seems plausible due the mark and style of inlay.

I wouldn't describe the quillions as "naga" that's a term related specifically to Buddhist and Hindu mythology. They are dragons from what we can see in the images. The arms and ornate collar are highly reminiscent of jineta. However the dragon form does point away from classical Nasrid designs.

In the image you linked - that's a Qajar revival piece from the 19th century.

The piece under discussion does not fit anything visible in the icongraphy or archeology of Byzantine or Trebizond that I'm aware of.


The Persian idea is interesting Jim, as I recall Chinese style dragons (as these seem to be from the head shape) started to be in vogue during the Timurid period.

The pommel looks potentially older than the rest of the hilt assembly to me...

Salaams Iain, It may indeed be an Oakeshott Type XI. Readers may see https://www.google.com/search?q=oake...&bih=665&dpr=1 plus a vast array of other available data on probably the greatest ever specialist historian on medieval swords .. Actually I didn't get much in feedback when I typed Oakshott wrongly misspelled !! into library search but with the correction now giving lots of references... OAKESHOTT.

There were a number of Oakeshott styles made in Spain, Italy and Germany and some ended up in armouries in Alexandria and plundered in and out of Mamluke hands etc. Some were Milanese with an M stamp. The Nasrid form seems to be there and I also agree on a mixed hilt/blade situation here. The quite big decorated cuff is interesting... I haven't seen that yet in Oakeshott Type XI but as it states in the great masters guide on this vast array of swords a degree of flexibility is required when viewing such examples.

The work already at Library will take me a while to plough through but I look forward to that.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain, It may indeed be an Oakeshott Type XI. Readers may see https://www.google.com/search?q=oake...&bih=665&dpr=1 plus a vast array of other available data on probably the greatest ever specialist historian on medieval swords .. Actually I didn't get much in feedback when I typed Oakshott wrongly misspelled !! into library search but with the correction now giving lots of references... OAKESHOTT.

There were a number of Oakeshott styles made in Spain, Italy and Germany and some ended up in armouries in Alexandria and plundered in and out of Mamluke hands etc. Some were Milanese with an M stamp. The Nasrid form seems to be there and I also agree on a mixed hilt/blade situation here. The quite big decorated cuff is interesting... I haven't seen that yet in Oakeshott Type XI but as it states in the great masters guide on this vast array of swords a degree of flexibility is required when viewing such examples.

The work already at Library will take me a while to plough through but I look forward to that.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim we can't really use the Oakeshott typology in full for a case like this I think, the XI was rather too early for this being in use during the 12th century. I referenced his pommel typology not the general sword typology. If we were to go down that route XIII might be more fitting although still too early in my view. As the large cuff is not original to the blade you won't find a match in Oakeshott for this.

Returning to the hilt and the decorative themes, more and more I'm favouring the central Asian provenance indicated by the auction house. The dragon theme in this form was popular during and after the Timurid period as can be seen on this jug handle. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/91.1.607

A blade such as this could have arrived in these environs in any number of ways, if I'm not mistaken the guard exhibits a two piece construction which could explain how it was fitted without removing the pommel.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually after looking more into this interesting sword, primarily the mounts at this point as the early European nature of the blade seems well established at probably latter 15th into 16th c.
The nature of the 'cross and orb' superimposed seems quite unusual and in its quadranted circumstance tenuously reminds me of Islamic astrolabe or navigationally oriented themes rather than the Christian cross and orb. While I am not saying this is what it nececcarily represents, it seems worthy of note. It is of course in the European latten inlay style, but I have not located any examples of the cross 'over' the orb as yet in sources checked.

As Iain notes, the dragon head (makara head in Indo-Persian weapons parlance)was indeed an artistic element used in varying material culture items from the Seljug Turks of 12th-13th c. but recorded as early as 9th.
("The Silver Dragon and Golden Fish", D.Alexander, Gladius XXIII, 2003).

It seems of course that these stylized forms were used as quillon terminals not only in Ottoman but well known in the downward quillon hilts of Persian qaddara from about 17th c. well into 19th. These same style quillons often with similar quillon terminals are seen in Qajar 'revival' type sword (1796+) as well as many Deccani associated swords.
It is interesting that the Afghan 'paluoar' sabre also has these stylized dragon head quillon terminals, with these typically regarded as 18th century and possibly slightly earlier.

I would note that while that may support the Central Asian theory for these mounts in degree, in "Arts of the Muslim Knight" (Furisiyya, ed.Bashir Mohammed, 2008) on p.78 (#42) there is a Bosnian sword of 17th c. (probably latter) which is remarkably in the same style as this sword with the brass openwork cuff, drooping quillons and dragon style terminals.
The blade is also noted as European, with Solingen mark date 1524.

Regarding the pommel seen on our example, I believe the association drawn to schiavona resulted from the boss type feature and later high relief faces seen in some of the earlier forms. The overall effect of this clearly refurbished old blade in reminiscent Nasrid style is probably composed with blade and earlier pommel, and likely ceremonially intended in the latter 18th into mid 19th c. Given the composite nature of the sword and its inherent stylization it would be hard to say exactly where it is from in present mounts.
As noted earlier, the dragonheads on earlier Ottoman and Persian hilts seem to be more dynamic in a more splayed profile. The more stylized 'blockish' nature of these terminals to me seems to suggest later production.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually after looking more into this interesting sword, primarily the mounts at this point as the early European nature of the blade seems well established at probably latter 15th into 16th c.
The nature of the 'cross and orb' superimposed seems quite unusual and in its quadranted circumstance tenuously reminds me of Islamic astrolabe or navigationally oriented themes rather than the Christian cross and orb. While I am not saying this is what it nececcarily represents, it seems worthy of note. It is of course in the European latten inlay style, but I have not located any examples of the cross 'over' the orb as yet in sources checked.

As Iain notes, the dragon head (makara head in Indo-Persian weapons parlance)was indeed an artistic element used in varying material culture items from the Seljug Turks of 12th-13th c. but recorded as early as 9th.
("The Silver Dragon and Golden Fish", D.Alexander, Gladius XXIII, 2003).

It seems of course that these stylized forms were used as quillon terminals not only in Ottoman but well known in the downward quillon hilts of Persian qaddara from about 17th c. well into 19th. These same style quillons often with similar quillon terminals are seen in Qajar 'revival' type sword (1796+) as well as many Deccani associated swords.
It is interesting that the Afghan 'paluoar' sabre also has these stylized dragon head quillon terminals, with these typically regarded as 18th century and possibly slightly earlier.

I would note that while that may support the Central Asian theory for these mounts in degree, in "Arts of the Muslim Knight" (Furisiyya, ed.Bashir Mohammed, 2008) on p.78 (#42) there is a Bosnian sword of 17th c. (probably latter) which is remarkably in the same style as this sword with the brass openwork cuff, drooping quillons and dragon style terminals.
The blade is also noted as European, with Solingen mark date 1524.

Regarding the pommel seen on our example, I believe the association drawn to schiavona resulted from the boss type feature and later high relief faces seen in some of the earlier forms. The overall effect of this clearly refurbished old blade in reminiscent Nasrid style is probably composed with blade and earlier pommel, and likely ceremonially intended in the latter 18th into mid 19th c. Given the composite nature of the sword and its inherent stylization it would be hard to say exactly where it is from in present mounts.
As noted earlier, the dragonheads on earlier Ottoman and Persian hilts seem to be more dynamic in a more splayed profile. The more stylized 'blockish' nature of these terminals to me seems to suggest later production.

Salaams Jim ~ This is indeed interesting...I wonder if it may be possible to show the sword from your reference; "Arts of the Muslim Knight" which I don't have... I thought the cuff was reminiscent of the cuffed sword at the Wallace. I haven't seen the style of cross and orb as the cross is often outside the circle and I note how very accurate the geometry is on this stamp or engraving. I have by now almost read through the entire Forum library on swords of the Oakeshott family though to do Oakeshott thoroughly would take months or years to achieve.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim we can't really use the Oakeshott typology in full for a case like this I think, the XI was rather too early for this being in use during the 12th century. I referenced his pommel typology not the general sword typology. If we were to go down that route XIII might be more fitting although still too early in my view. As the large cuff is not original to the blade you won't find a match in Oakeshott for this.

Returning to the hilt and the decorative themes, more and more I'm favouring the central Asian provenance indicated by the auction house. The dragon theme in this form was popular during and after the Timurid period as can be seen on this jug handle. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/91.1.607

A blade such as this could have arrived in these environs in any number of ways, if I'm not mistaken the guard exhibits a two piece construction which could explain how it was fitted without removing the pommel.

Salaams Iain, I agree ... Oakeshott does advise against such rigid terminology and I'm sure a more flexible approach is required. It looks like this is a mixed sword which follows the reason of such weapons as spoils of war then changed to suit a new owners favourite style. I have a picture sketch of a hilt from about 1290 as I recall and will publish that as it looks the same shape as the pommel at #1... I think each part of the weapon needs looking at as it could be a very mixed bag of tricks. The Wallace has a sword with a dominant cuff but I can't draw the conclusion yet of any link ..was that not made in Cairo?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[cornelistromp]

sorry for late reply in this thread.

This sword is of a type carried by the Venetians troups in the wars against the Ottoman Turks.

this dalmation sword, also the blade, can be dated around 1600-1650 , it is of oakeshott type XIII, a type frequently used in the 16th and 17th C.
However I must admit that oakeshotts classification is not/rarely used for 17thC swords.
The origin probably is Venice.

best,

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

sorry for late reply in this thread.

This sword is of a type carried by the Venetians troups in the wars against the Ottoman Turks.

this dalmation sword, also the blade, can be dated around 1600-1650 , it is of oakeshott type XIII, a type frequently used in the 16th and 17th C.
However I must admit that oakeshotts classification is not/rarely used for 17thC swords.
The origin probably is Venice.

best,

Salaams Cornelistromp ! I was stuck for a moment trying to find an example and then your superb picture arrived... Great support ... For me this is really the first serious look at Swords of the European region and requires a load of swatting up. I had re-read lumps of "Constantinople-The Rise and Fall" hoping to gain a foothold and some of the brilliant stuff in Forum Library. I'm sure there is a lot more to unearth on this subject and details of the strange cuff could develop . I am quite curious about the cuff on #1 and the example at the Wallace. Below is the late 15th C sketch I have of a weapon with a similar pommel not 8 sided but 6. Jim has also placed a reference from "Arts of the Muslim Knight" and I wondered if anyone has an example of the unusual latten "Cross IN Orb"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Jasper for the great entry! It is most interesting to see the similarity in these Venetian swords of 17th century, and how much influence the Timurid/Safavid downturned quillons had on certain European forms. In Italy the 'crab claw' hilts were certainly well established, and if not mistaken some degree of this diffused into German work.

In the case of this example from Venice the quillons are without terminals, however the interesting crosshatch designs remind me of the familiar fir cone of Augsburg marks. In our example of discussion I am not sure if the Nasrid character and Persian/Ottoman style quillon terminals would necessarily correspond to swords used by Venetians vs. the Ottomans.
It does seem clear that this Dalmatian associaion would lend well to the Balkan (particularly Bosnian) attribution of this apparant commemorative style sword in these type mounts.

Ibrahiim I will see if I can get the images from the book on the Bosnian example. I think seeing the openwork on this example and the dragon head quillons will better illustrate the connection I am making.

Regarding the pommel, as Jasper well notes, the Oakeshott typologies do not typically work well farther into Renaissance period and later. In these cases the work by A.V.B.Norman is the reference to use, and I will later look into that as well.
It is interesting that the example shown by Jasper also has an octagonal profile, though of clearly different character.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All Note to Forum

For an example of Cross IN Orb Please see http://musingsofafreifechter.tumblr.com/ at bottom of page ...


For an example of an octagonal pommel see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3707

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim I will see if I can get the images from the book on the Bosnian example. I think seeing the openwork on this example and the dragon head quillons will better illustrate the connection I am making.


Salaams Jim ~ Thank you very much Jim ... That would be great... The brain cells are taking a battering and are at overload. Ewart Oakeshott spent his entire life in this subject, thus, I have embarked on something of a roller coaster learning curve of epic proportions. Thanks for your help.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Superb entry, Jasper ... as always

[Iain]

Fantastic stuff Jim and Jasper.

I think that might just clinch it, Ventian and Balkan (Bosnian) combination piece.

Here's the page with the Bosnian piece courtesy of a friend and fellow forumite.

Fascinating material, this is the sort of puzzle and detective work that make this forum a real joy to be a party of.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Note to Forum.. Never being one to ignore the obscure reference! I thought this was interesting and related to Dalmatian swords through traditional dance...

Moreska is pronounced 'Moreska'. It means 'Moorish'. The word is derived from the Spanish adjective 'Morisco' or the Italian 'Moresco'. It is a matter of conjecture whether the dance came to the Adriatic directly from Spain through roving Spanish sailors, or from Sicily or Italy when Dalmatia formed part of the Venetian Republic whether it was originally a Moorish dance or a Spanish one, inspired by the struggle of Spanish Christians against the Moors is also debatable though the latter seems the most likely. We do know for certain that it is one of the oldest traditional European dances still performed, and that records exist of it being danced in Lerida in 1156 in a form portraying a Christian and National victory over the Moors and their expulsion from Aragon.

From the 12th century and particularly in the 16th and 17th centuries, the dance spread to many Mediterranean countries: to Italy, Corsica, Sicily, Malta, France and, through Spanish trade, to Flanders, Germany and even to England. It was subject to frequent local variations, in regard to plot, protagonists and eventually also to form. In Corsica it was danced by eighty swordsmen on each side, armed with two swords apiece, who did battle for the town of Mariana to the music of a solo violin; in Elba the engagement was between Christians and Turks, in other places between Arabs and Turks; sometimes the damsel in distress was a white maiden of royal blood, sometimes a Turkish or Moorish one of equal innocence and beauty. In Ferrara a dragon was introduced who tried to devour the damsel and there were many later versions which degenerated from the original war-dance (intrinsically a useful sword practice and 'keep-fit' class for the warriors of small island or coastal garrisons for whom good swordsmanship and alertness meant their survival) into a form of folk drama, and eventually into the dance interludes of pastoral plays and Italian opera. In Germany the Moreska, though called Moriskentanze, became a mere collection of local folk dances and in England the Morris (l.e. Moorish) dancers threw away their swords and substituted long wooden sticks which they fought with and over which they hopped. In most of the Mediterranean the Moreska survived until the end of the 18th century, and in Italy and Dalmatia till the close of the 19th.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Fantastic stuff Jim and Jasper.

I think that might just clinch it, Ventian and Balkan (Bosnian) combination piece.

Here's the page with the Bosnian piece courtesy of a friend and fellow forumite.

Fascinating material, this is the sort of puzzle and detective work that make this forum a real joy to be a party of.

Salaams Iain ~ Excellent picture of the sword ~ Perhaps the write up can be included as a separate picture as it is split in half ? I wonder if the roundels on #1 and the roundels here are of the same design ? Roundels I believe were used to imply the wheels of a chariot in earlier times in the region.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Actually after looking more into this interesting sword, primarily the mounts at this point as the early European nature of the blade seems well established at probably latter 15th into 16th c.
The nature of the 'cross and orb' superimposed seems quite unusual and in its quadranted circumstance tenuously reminds me of Islamic astrolabe or navigationally oriented themes rather than the Christian cross and orb. While I am not saying this is what it nececcarily represents, it seems worthy of note. It is of course in the European latten inlay style, but I have not located any examples of the cross 'over' the orb as yet in sources checked.


Hello Jim...Your idea of the cross in the circle relating possibly to astrolabe was interesting. I saw an interesting note on Unit indicators on Roman Shields and include that as worth looking at. I placed the example of another "cross IN orb" earlier but add this artwork for comments. The last two simple circle with a cross appearing like the others on shields to denote the army unit they belong to.
It is, however, an outside chance... and the "Cross In Orb" I placed earlier appears to be just that... denoting it is said the country (orb)... protected by the cross. See http://musingsofafreifechter.tumblr.com/ scroll to bottom of page.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Text related to the Bosnian sword.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Text related to the Bosnian sword.

Salaams Iain... Many thanks..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.