11th June 2013, 09:59 PM | #1 |
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Unusual gunong, from where?
Just win this very unusual gunong by ebay. First I never have seen a gunong with a handle like this, I think it's a pot whale tooth. Unfortunately is the tip broken. But what seems to my eyes much more strange is the scabbard, could this be T'Boli or Bagobo?
All comments are very appreciated. Detlef |
11th June 2013, 11:55 PM | #2 |
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I am wondering out loud - could this be an early version of a Sulu gunong (based on the ukkil on the wood scabbard and the fact that there is no okir on the guard)?
The catch to this theory though is the fact that the white metal mounts look newer to me. |
12th June 2013, 12:08 AM | #3 | |
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thank you very much for your thoughts about this gunong. Blade form look as well to my eyes like an early form. So the ukkil is Sulu, was it usual to lime the ukkil on Sulu? Ask myself if the metal mounts could be from silver and are maybe fresh polished not long ago. Best regards, Detlef |
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12th June 2013, 12:33 AM | #4 |
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I have always called them Sperm whales and had never heard the term "pot" whale, but apparently they are the same. I would agree that is probably the origin of this tooth as i have quite a similar one myself.
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12th June 2013, 01:56 AM | #5 |
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That is a very small tooth for the Spermacetti Whale .
Possibly from an immature one; also possibly a smaller toothed whale . Yes, carving work like this often was accented with lime . |
12th June 2013, 03:06 AM | #6 | |
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12th June 2013, 03:08 AM | #7 | |
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12th June 2013, 04:37 AM | #8 |
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IT COULD BE PILOT WHALE (SOMETIMES CALLED BLACK FISH) THERE ARE LARGE NUMBERS OF THEM AND THEY ARE NOTED FOR MASS STRANDINGS. BEFORE WHALEING AND THE SALE OF ALL WHALE MATERIAL WAS STOPPED THERE WERE PILOT, SPERM AND KILLER WHALE TEETH EASILY AVAILABLE.
THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS A LARGE TIGER TOOTH I HAVE SEEN TWO GUNONG WITH TIGER TEETH POMMELS OVER THE YEARS. WHAT ARE THE MEASURMENTS ON THIS KNIFE AND THE TOOTH. |
12th June 2013, 09:01 AM | #9 |
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Hello Detlef,
This looks like a later gunong to me: the blade might be lamianted - the luk were probably made by stock removal though; the (brass?) crosspiece also doesn't look pre-WW2 to me either. If it is small, the pommel could come from several toothed whales as suggested. It's interesting that they used the tooth tip for attaching the blade/ferrule and filed down the base of the tooth for the pommel end. I'd be interested to see pics of the blade if you're going to etch it! Regards, Kai |
12th June 2013, 06:31 PM | #10 | |
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Hi David, you are correct, in Germany we call this whale "pot whale", my mistake! But found the term "pot whale" also in a online translator. Can you post pictures from your example? Best regards, Detlef |
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12th June 2013, 06:37 PM | #11 | |
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there wasn't given measurements in the ebay auction but I think that it is rather small. Will post measurements when I have received it. BTW, there have been tigers on the Philippines? Best regards, Detlef |
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12th June 2013, 06:49 PM | #12 | |
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will etch the blade when I have received it. Like you I think to see that the blade is laminated. Do you think that later gunongs will have a scabbard like this one? Frankly said I never have seen a gunong with such a scabbard. Regards, Detlef |
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12th June 2013, 06:50 PM | #13 |
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NO TIGERS IN THE PHILIPPINES UNLESS YOU COUNT SOME OF THE WOMEN WHEN THEY GET MAD.
I SUSPECT ALL SORTS OF IVORY ARRIVED VIA TRADE TEETH, TUSKS, ECT TIGER PARTS ARE USED IN CHINESE MEDICINE (ACTUALLY I SUSPECT THERE IS NOT A KNOWN SUBSTANCE IN THE UNIVERSE THAT IS NOT ) THE TOOTH IS POSSIBLY A LATER ADDITION TO THE KNIFE OR THE SHOP HAD THE TOOTH LAYING AROUND AND THE BUYER REQUESTED IT OR THEY JUST PUT IT TOGETHER. YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TELL IF ITS WHALE ON CLOSE INSPECTION AS THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN SHAPE AND OUTSIDE TEXTURE THAN BEAR, SEALS OR THE BIG CATS TEETH. THE GUM LINE SHOWING IN THE PICTURES LOOKS A BIT STRANGE FOR A WHALE BUT ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO TELL A LOT FROM PICTURES. |
12th June 2013, 08:09 PM | #14 | |
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After I have received it I should be able to tell more about the material and as well if it is original to the blade or a later addition. Best regards, Detlef |
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12th June 2013, 10:51 PM | #15 |
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Unless that is a miniature Gunong it's not a Pilot Whale tooth of the size we find around here .
Looks like white brass or german silver . I love the fat little luks . Last edited by Rick; 12th June 2013 at 11:03 PM. |
12th June 2013, 11:22 PM | #16 |
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The other thing that makes me hesitate on calling this early are the luks - they are not the style used in earlier blades.
Curious to see if the blade is laminated or not. As far as the scabbard is concerned, I have never seen one carved like this before. |
13th June 2013, 12:02 AM | #17 |
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THE SCABBARD CARVING LOOKS A LOT LIKE THAT DONE ON THE PARANG SCABBARDS FROM JAVA DISCUSSED IN OLD POSTS.
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13th June 2013, 05:41 AM | #18 |
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Hello Detlef, Very interesting gunong you have there. I cannot really tell from the photos for sure but the end of the tooth looks to be either worn or broken in an odd manner. Just to create more confusion could this possibly be a dugong tooth/tusk?
Best, Robert |
13th June 2013, 02:37 PM | #19 | |
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Here are some more images of Sperm whale teeth and one made into a small knife handle for a sgian dubh. The teeth in a Sperm what come in a great variety of sizes from the much larger back teeth generally used scrimshaw to small teeth in the front of the jaw. |
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13th June 2013, 03:10 PM | #20 | |
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no problem, the pictures you have shown speak for themselve and I was nearly sure by my first guess that it is a sperm whale tooth. Best regards, Detlef |
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13th June 2013, 03:16 PM | #21 | |
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thank you. Agree with you that it is difficult to see by the pictures how the end is broken. Will know more when I have received it. Regarding about the handle material I am with David but who knows? But maybe I will be able to tell more when I have it in my hands. Regards, Detlef |
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13th June 2013, 05:06 PM | #22 |
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I don't think this id dunong tusk. Dunong has a different surface character. See this example.
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15th June 2013, 05:43 AM | #23 |
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The scabbard and the decorative motifs look Waray....
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15th June 2013, 07:07 PM | #24 | |
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15th June 2013, 07:58 PM | #25 | |
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José, if i am not mistaken i believe that Waray-Waray is the language and that the people themselves are referred to simply as Waray. It seems that this language is spoken across Samar, Billiran and Leyte and i suppose that means that there are various tribes that come under the heading of the Waray people. Do all these people share the same motifs as well as their language? |
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15th June 2013, 09:27 PM | #26 | |
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Regards, Detlef |
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16th June 2013, 01:00 AM | #27 |
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don't have one on hand, but a good way to see Waray motifs would be on some of the garabs...
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17th June 2013, 05:34 AM | #28 | |
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I realize my initial response was a bit vague. What I implied was that the scabbard looked Waray and may not be original to the dagger. This is actually quite common in the Philippines. I have an old junggayan barung with a replacement Ilonggo scabbard (it looks weird, but fits like a glove.) The gunong itself could be Moro (though I'm not 100% certain it is, too.) The reason I say Waray is because of the design motifs on that gunong scabbard show more Waray traits than any Bangsamoro traits from any of the Muslim peoples...especially those of Lupah Sug. For one, Moro design motifs would be more organic and amorphous with less defined borders. This scabbard has heavily defined motif borders and panels with more repetitive geometric elements....definitive Waray design elements. Also, there is a definite representation of a flower in the center of the scabbard....you would never see that on a Moro scabbard. As for photos, I've seen several excellent examples of Waray weapons such as pulajanes garabs posted here by several members of this forum to study and compare. Regards, Bangkaya |
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17th June 2013, 06:03 AM | #29 |
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Bangkaya, you do have a good point of the flower not being in the middle of the scabbard of the typical Moro scabbard. I am with you with the gunong perhaps not being Moro, though I am still of the opinion that the piece may be later.
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