Kyber Collection

[trenchwarfare]

Picked these up at the show, this weekend. All were taken off KIA Taliban, in Afghanistan. To my untrained eye, none of these are modern toutista junque. Some, look to be genuine antiques. That's where you guys come in. A few exhibit repairs, or replaced grips. The three ivory hilt pesh kabz, may have replaced scabbards? I don't collect these, but with an instant collection like this, I might. The two large ivory daggers are beautiful, but I think I like the plain horn handled one, best. It looks very old, and business-like. I'm not gonna tell what I paid. Don't want anyone to hate me. At least till after I get some information.

[Atlantia]

Amazing haul!
Congratulations.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Picked these up at the show, this weekend. All were taken off KIA Taliban, in Afghanistan. To my untrained eye, none of these are modern toutista junque. Some, look to be genuine antiques. That's where you guys come in. A few exhibit repairs, or replaced grips. The three ivory hilt pesh kabz, may have replaced scabbards? I don't collect these, but with an instant collection like this, I might. The two large ivory daggers are beautiful, but I think I like the plain horn handled one, best. It looks very old, and business-like. I'm not gonna tell what I paid. Don't want anyone to hate me. At least till after I get some information.

Salaams trenchwarfare They look ok... no attempt to play about with the weapons by the look of it... Sometimes the scabbards are newer as you say or occasionally the blades have been reworked with decoration but I dont think that has been done here... all look real enough. The souks are not exactly awash with gear in places like Kabul (Chicken Street)but theres plenty of it. Getting the stuff out is a real pain unless it is fetched out by troops working there which avoids the completely crazy customs proceedure at the civilian airports! Frankly the story about being taken off the insurgents is dodgey as how can that be proved..? and since souks set up officially in the bases periodically and the stuff is quite inexpensive...its normal to see a lot of stuff getting onto the open market now ~ as you see.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[trenchwarfare]

Thanks guys. Normally, I take war souvanir stories, with a box of salt. However, I got these from a Special Ops, "Intelligence " officer. Early Afghan War advisor, and linguist. Three tours in country. He also had lots of Afghan medals, and other memorabilia. There were two other Pesh Kabz daggers. One, was ivory hilted, and a gift from an Afghan Colonel. The other, had a Rams horn handle, and was his personal war trophy. Both were massive knives. The gift was not for sale, and the trophy, was $800.00. I paid less than half that, for these eleven pieces. That being said... Could it be, that some of these are family heirlooms, passed down through the generations? Used by father against the Russians, and back to Great-Grandfather, against the British? Romantic thoughts, I know. I've always been a dreamer.

[AJ1356]

Nice find, there seems to be some nice pieces in there, I'll have a closer look later. Taken from dead Taliban bodies, that is just a ploy by the seller to make them more appealing to a potential buyer.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Picked these up at the show, this weekend. All were taken off KIA Taliban, in Afghanistan. .

How many ak47s, grenades & rpgs in the cache?

At least two may have been around 100 years, Id guess, the rest rather more recent...

Shame the tales of current murder & slaughter add value for some..,. were not talking history here.. this is current...


spiral

[A.alnakkas]

Nice group! agree with the rest, probably the whole taken from KIA Taliban bit is cooked up to add more value.

Unless someone can prove that Taliban fighters carry such weapons?:P would be certainly interesting.

[trenchwarfare]

Thanks for the comments guys. Don't worry, I bought the blades, not the story. Besides, the price was so right, there was no need for a selling point. I got them from the man, that brought them back. He told me how they came into his posession, and I have no reason to disbelieve him. No, there were no AK47s, grenades, or RPGs. But, I did buy two Russian SKSs, a Chinese RPK, and a Nagant revolver from him.

I would like some assistance, in weeding out the old from the not so old. The large Pesh Kabz, all look pretty old. At least 19th century. The "Kyber Knives" are a different story. It's a little harder to tell with them. Any assistance, is much appreciated.

[Rick]

The example at the top of the picture has white horn scales ?
If so, I have its brother and it is from the first quarter of the 20th C. at latest .

[trenchwarfare]

Yes Rick, it does have white ram's horn grips. They are very similar. The blade looks to be very old, and has fine lines, cut down the spine. The scabbard has had a hard life, and is wrapped in blue electrical tape.

[Atlantia]

You have a couple of interesting later 19th/early 20thC Afghan Military scabbards on these two.
What are the Kybers like inside?
I'd have expected them to have the three bar guards with knuckle bows.
Get them out so we can see
Did you get my PM?

[Robert]

WOW, what a great way to start a collection !!! Congratulations on such a find.


Regards,
Robert

[trenchwarfare]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

You have a couple of interesting later 19th/early 20thC Afghan Military scabbards on these two.
What are the Kybers like inside?
I'd have expected them to have the three bar guards with knuckle bows.
Get them out so we can see
Did you get my PM?

Yes, I did get your PM. There's a nekkid shot of the swords, in the second photo. I'll try to get some close-ups posted soon. Busy making hurricane prep right now. Hopefully, the power won't be out for long. You'd think they would have learned by now, and put the power lines underground.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Thanks guys. Normally, I take war souvanir stories, with a box of salt. However, I got these from a Special Ops, "Intelligence " officer. Early Afghan War advisor, and linguist. Three tours in country. He also had lots of Afghan medals, and other memorabilia. There were two other Pesh Kabz daggers. One, was ivory hilted, and a gift from an Afghan Colonel. The other, had a Rams horn handle, and was his personal war trophy. Both were massive knives. The gift was not for sale, and the trophy, was $800.00. I paid less than half that, for these eleven pieces. That being said... Could it be, that some of these are family heirlooms, passed down through the generations? Used by father against the Russians, and back to Great-Grandfather, against the British? Romantic thoughts, I know. I've always been a dreamer.

"The Special Ops, "Intelligence " officer. Early Afghan War advisor, and linguist. Three tours in country. " should have more sense than putting himself under the liability of criminal charges, whether he was telling the truth or liying.. We not talking ww2 bringbacks here.

NOTE:

Thee below story is from the Marine Corps News Service, but War Trophy Guidance is derived from DOD Directives and apply to all of the services.

Some war trophies are downright sadistic - for example, enemy teeth or body parts. Needless to say, they're banned by military law.

But the law doesn't stop there. Some trophies that might seem legitimate also are barred - for example, weapons, ordnance and personal items of enemy soldiers.

Even if Marines returning from Operation Iraqi Freedom are sure their trophy is legal, they need command approval to bring it home.

"War trophies, per se, are not against the law," said Maj. Matthew W. Cord, the director of the Criminal Law Division for Marine Corps Base. "The definition of a war trophy is something we take from the enemy - not (from) enemy personnel. ... When I say we, I mean the Marine Corps. Individuals do not take it; it's done as an institution, the Department of the Navy or the Department of Defense."

Cord says laws regarding war trophies are strict.

"Before we can seize and bring back to America what we consider war trophies, it has to be approved through the chain of command ... ," said Cord. "This isn't something where a platoon commander or a company commander can just decide 'wow, I think that Iraqi tank would make a great war trophy' - they can't do that."

War trophies are a very old military tradition, Cord said. He said the tradition goes back "even before there was an America."

"The idea is that when two nations fight a war, the tools and instruments of war can be captured and taken and kept by the opposing force - but that's all that can be taken," said Cord.

Among contraband items:
•Personal effects of enemy fighters or prisoners. U.S. troops returning with such items could face larceny charges under military law, along with international, federal and state laws and general orders.
•Weapons, pieces of weapons and ordnance, according to Lt. Col. Thomas G. Scully, the staff judge advocate for the 1st Marine Division rear element.

Marines were briefed prior to deployment on what souvenirs were appropriate, said Scully.

"Everyone who went over there was given ample time to study and understand the policy," said Scully. "They were also given the opportunity to drop off weapons in dumps. So they had the opportunity to clear themselves before they left."

Nonetheless, a few Marines have returned from Operation Iraqi Freedom with forbidden items, he said.

"There have been cases were Marines have brought back pistols and ordnance," said Scully. "I suspect that those cases will be prosecuted.

"We're treating cases of ordnance brought back more severely than with weapons," said Scully. "They'll (undergo) Article 32 investigations. ... We're treating them all seriously, but more so in cases of ordnance."

Violations involving ordnance and weapons also will be subject to state and federal prosecution, Cord said.

Both men encouraged individual Marines to use their chain of command if they come across a legal war trophy they'd like to keep.

"If the Marines anticipate bringing back a war trophy, they should run it up the chain of command to make sure it is in compliance with the commanding general's policy," said Scully.

War trophies that might pass muster, based on 1st Marine Division guidance:
•Uniform items - military blouses, trousers, berets, helmets, belts, sashes, boots and gloves.
•Uniform accoutrements - military rank insignia, shoulder patches, shoulder straps, epaulets and buttons.
•Individual equipment - gas masks, swagger sticks, cartridge belts, mess kits, canteens, ammunition pouches, map cases, compasses, binoculars and other optics.
•Unit equipment - unit insignia, military photos, training manuals and training posters.
•Other - nonlethal items conforming with the spirit and intent of expressed guidance.


from.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/...phies.-tvA.htm

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Yes, I did get your PM. There's a nekkid shot of the swords, in the second photo. I'll try to get some close-ups posted soon. Busy making hurricane prep right now. Hopefully, the power won't be out for long. You'd think they would have learned by now, and put the power lines underground.

Nice pick-up, Trench...

If you decide against using this grouping as the basis of a collection, I might be intersted in upgrading my Khyber knife and my pesh kabz... PM comin' atchya.

Good luck with the storm prep, and here's to wishing Isaac is a non event for you and your Gulf Coast neighbors...

[Rick]

Originally Posted by spiral

"The Special Ops, "Intelligence " officer. Early Afghan War advisor, and linguist. Three tours in country. " should have more sense than putting himself under the liability of criminal charges, whether he was telling the truth or liying.. We not talking ww2 bringbacks here.

NOTE:

Thee below story is from the Marine Corps News Service, but War Trophy Guidance is derived from DOD Directives and apply to all of the services.

Some war trophies are downright sadistic - for example, enemy teeth or body parts. Needless to say, they're banned by military law.

But the law doesn't stop there. Some trophies that might seem legitimate also are barred - for example, weapons, ordnance and personal items of enemy soldiers.

Even if Marines returning from Operation Iraqi Freedom are sure their trophy is legal, they need command approval to bring it home.

"War trophies, per se, are not against the law," said Maj. Matthew W. Cord, the director of the Criminal Law Division for Marine Corps Base. "The definition of a war trophy is something we take from the enemy - not (from) enemy personnel. ... When I say we, I mean the Marine Corps. Individuals do not take it; it's done as an institution, the Department of the Navy or the Department of Defense."

Cord says laws regarding war trophies are strict.

"Before we can seize and bring back to America what we consider war trophies, it has to be approved through the chain of command ... ," said Cord. "This isn't something where a platoon commander or a company commander can just decide 'wow, I think that Iraqi tank would make a great war trophy' - they can't do that."

War trophies are a very old military tradition, Cord said. He said the tradition goes back "even before there was an America."

"The idea is that when two nations fight a war, the tools and instruments of war can be captured and taken and kept by the opposing force - but that's all that can be taken," said Cord.

Among contraband items:
•Personal effects of enemy fighters or prisoners. U.S. troops returning with such items could face larceny charges under military law, along with international, federal and state laws and general orders.
•Weapons, pieces of weapons and ordnance, according to Lt. Col. Thomas G. Scully, the staff judge advocate for the 1st Marine Division rear element.

Marines were briefed prior to deployment on what souvenirs were appropriate, said Scully.

"Everyone who went over there was given ample time to study and understand the policy," said Scully. "They were also given the opportunity to drop off weapons in dumps. So they had the opportunity to clear themselves before they left."

Nonetheless, a few Marines have returned from Operation Iraqi Freedom with forbidden items, he said.

"There have been cases were Marines have brought back pistols and ordnance," said Scully. "I suspect that those cases will be prosecuted.

"We're treating cases of ordnance brought back more severely than with weapons," said Scully. "They'll (undergo) Article 32 investigations. ... We're treating them all seriously, but more so in cases of ordnance."

Violations involving ordnance and weapons also will be subject to state and federal prosecution, Cord said.

Both men encouraged individual Marines to use their chain of command if they come across a legal war trophy they'd like to keep.

"If the Marines anticipate bringing back a war trophy, they should run it up the chain of command to make sure it is in compliance with the commanding general's policy," said Scully.

War trophies that might pass muster, based on 1st Marine Division guidance:
•Uniform items - military blouses, trousers, berets, helmets, belts, sashes, boots and gloves.
•Uniform accoutrements - military rank insignia, shoulder patches, shoulder straps, epaulets and buttons.
•Individual equipment - gas masks, swagger sticks, cartridge belts, mess kits, canteens, ammunition pouches, map cases, compasses, binoculars and other optics.
•Unit equipment - unit insignia, military photos, training manuals and training posters.
•Other - nonlethal items conforming with the spirit and intent of expressed guidance.


from.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/...phies.-tvA.htm

We are discussing the objects themselves here .
Not the story, correct ?
No sense in getting sidetracked .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

We are discussing the objects themselves here .
Not the story, correct ?
No sense in getting sidetracked .

Absolutely. Probably Jonathan thought he was posting a chronicle in a different venue

[trenchwarfare]

Originally Posted by fernando

Absolutely. Probably Jonathan thought he was posting a chronicle in a different venue

[edited]

Now, let's get back to talking about blades.

[Rick]

God, I hate it when the moon is near full ......

Enough already .

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Rick

God, I hate it when the moon is near full ......

Enough already .

Hi Rick,

If you look at the two Pesh-kabz that TW has just got, then your's is more like the buffalo hilted one.
T section blade and 'essentially' a flat sided blade leading to a angled flat ground edge that runs straight off of it.
On yours the edge grinding is more clearly defined.
The other one I'd say is probobly 19thC. The hilt may be Ivory or bone and the blade is actually hollow ground of a sort, rising to the 'T' spine and also rising to a shoulder before the flat ground edge.
I would expect this one to have a fairly high probability of being wootz.

[Atlantia]

Next this Choora.
The one with the 'orange hilt' is a fairly standard modern type. The other one is a bit more interesting.
The hilt appears to be Ivory. Notice the concentric age cracks? Could that be Walrus!
The top of the spine is nicely worked and has an attached plate with what looks like it might be an inscription in Arabic.
Unusual in my experience.
Perhaps a close-up will be translatable by Lotfy?

[Atlantia]

This is an interesting group. Very much a 'grab bag' of Afghani weapons.
Some good, some average, some look to have had recent work done on them.

The antique Military scabbards (just look at those steel drags!) are quite unusual. If the swords within are original then the mouth of the scabbard won't have marks or room for the three bar knuckle bow type and the swords might even have military stamps somewhere.

The sword with the Persian-esq chiselling is cute. Hilt looks very recent, could it be an older blade?

A nice and interesting lot.

[Atlantia]

TW,
The one with the all brown hilt in the military scabbard. Once the winds have dies down can you post some close-ups of that one.
Don't worry mate You batton down the ole hatches, we'll do all the work here

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Rick,

If you look at the two Pesh-kabz that TW has just got, then your's is more like the buffalo hilted one.
T section blade and 'essentially' a flat sided blade leading to a angled flat ground edge that runs straight off of it.
On yours the edge grinding is more clearly defined.
The other one I'd say is probobly 19thC. The hilt may be Ivory or bone and the blade is actually hollow ground of a sort, rising to the 'T' spine and also rising to a shoulder before the flat ground edge.
I would expect this one to have a fairly high probability of being wootz.

Yah, you're right, Gene .
Bad eyes on my part, I guess .

I expect only the owner can confirm the scale material .

Y'know, it sure looks like the edge on my piece was cut with a sharp instrument rather than being ground .

[Rick]

Spiral, please empty your inbox .
I will re-open the thread after we chat .

Thanks,

Rick

[trenchwarfare]

Where were we...

My observations

From the top:

The first piece I'd guess, is post WWII. It has the little circle disigns, you often see from this era. From North Africa, to India. Hilt is ram's horn, and steel. Suede covered wood scabbard, with galvanized sheet metal fittings.

The second knife, looks to be old, with a plain wood handle. Nice patina, with a small amount of decoration. Several forging flaws. Military scabbard.

Number three, has an identical patina, and is also lightly decorated. Horn, and steel handle looks to be a fairly recent replacement. Military scabbard.

The blade on number four has an old looking patina, but also the unusual Indo Persian engraving. Hilt is horn, bone, and steel, and looks replaced. Scabbard is soft leather, over sheet metal.

The two on the right, are missing scabbards: The larger one, looks to be the newest, at less than 20 years old. Hilt is brass, ram, and steel. The smaller one, has the same patina, as the two in military scabbards. And is similarly decorated. Hilt is ram, and steel. It's missing the steel portion of the hilt, on the opposite side.

The hilt of the "orange" Choora, is made of ivory-celuloid. If made in the US, I'd say 1920-40. Elsewhere in the world, I don't know. Workmanship is good, but looks like production work.

The smaller one, does have an ivory hilt, and is very well made, and decorated. I think it is pretty old, and was made for someone of status.

The smallest one, is tourista all the way. Bone and brass handle, with the same little circles. Post WWII.

The grips on the light handled Pesh-kabz, are ram's horn, and were replaced, a very long time ago. Blade looks very old, with deep pitting. Some decoration on the spine. I believe it to be the oldest.

The dark handle, is horn, and has several repairs. Blade has the most pleasing patina, and has never been sharpened since it was made. I think it is very old, as well.

Well, that's my long winded observations, of an area I know next to nothing about.

[mross]

All I have to add is that cache is the bargain of a lifetime. Looks like you just found yourself a niche!

[trenchwarfare]

I have a severe case of C.A.D.D. (Collector's Attention Deficit Disorder) I find my niche, all the time! I did a close examination of all the blades with a glass. Without an etching, The only blade that's wootz, is the black Pesh-kabz. And, I think it has rhino grip panels!!! I'm not fimiliar to the properties of rhino, but I see a definate pattern, that's not found in bovine, or other type horn. The white dagger is deeply pitted, and has deep scratches from being "cleaned".

[Rick]

If you hold a Rhino hilt in your wet hand it will stick to the skin; not like glue, but it will not feel slippery that is .

[trenchwarfare]

It sticks!!!