Damascene and Pamor

[Kiai Carita]

Dear forumites,

I have heard that pamor ios damascene, and also I have heard that the two techniques are not the same. Which is the truth can anyone explain the difference if there is any?

Terimakasih banyak,
Bram

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, they're a bit different.

By "damascene" the writer would be referring to what we call pattern welded steel, or mechanical damascus---damascus steel. This is produced by forge welding alternating layers of ferric material of varying carbon content. This is a similar process to the making of a billet of pamor, but in pamor we prepare the material for further use as the "skin" of a wafer of steel.

Thus, in a pamor blade we have the pamor material on either side of the steel core. The steel core is the part of the blade that can take a heat treat to produce a cutting edge.The pamor is iron, or iron and nickel, and acts as a protective coat for the hardened steel core.Iron will not harden with a heat treat---steel will.

In a damascus blade we have a material that incorporates the qualities that will allow a heat treat for a cutting edge, going all the way through the blade---its the same stuff all the way through and capable of taking a heat treat all the way through.

Pretty much the same process to make both, just with a different end use and different qualities.

[Jason Anstey]

... further to what Alan has said, but slightly off topic.

Damascene or Damasteel is different from what true Damastus steel is and has become a bit of a misnomer,

Pulad or wootz is a cruicible steel and is the correct term for the type of steel used in old blades from Damascus. Very few people can make this type of steel these days. A google for the above terms should turn up some images to better illustrate the difference.

Cheers

Jason

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually Jason, the words "damascene", "damascus", and "damask" can be very confusing and misleading if we do not use them with care.

The English usage of "damascene" is to refer to a type of fabric with a raised design woven into it, or to a method of ornamenting metal with inlaid gold or silver, or to a watered pattern.

When the word "damascus" is combined with either the word "iron", or "steel", it refers to iron and steel welded together in imitation of Damask Steel.

The first known use of the phrase "damask steel" occurred in 1603 , and in the English Language can refer to either steel manufactured at Damascus---that which we would now probably call wootz--- or to its imitation, created as I mention above.

The word "wootz" first appeared in the English Language at the end of the 18th century, but it is only in very recent times that its use has become widespread, probably because of the rise of the custom knife industry.

Damasteel is actually a tradename for a type of factory produced steel having similar appearance to mechanical damascus steel.

http://www.damasteel.com/index.html

[josh stout]

I have read about how the pamor of a keris is made with folded steel over a core, but to me this seems simply a variety of pattern welding, and one that sounds extremely similar to Chinese sanmai construction. I think pamor is a general word in Bahasa for the patterns in steel as I think it refers to any patterns including those various pedeng type sabers with inserted edges. In that case the "pamor" would refer to patterns that go all the way through the body of a saber, rather than a skin over a core. Here is a modern made central Javanese pedeng with what might be called a twist core Damascus body and an inserted edge of high carbon steel.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...i/27012798.jpg

This one is interesting because the decorative piercing at the base of the blade allows one to see clearly that the edge plate was inserted into the twist core body rather than being forge welded on in a piled construction as is usually assumed for Chinese and Persian twist core pieces. Also, some sort of temper line is visible along the edge-plate at the base of the blade. At the back of the blade, there is no indication that the edge-plate extends all the way through forming a core.
Josh

[A. G. Maisey]

Josh, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

The usual way that we construct a pamor blade is by making the billet of pamor, and then welding it on each side of a piece of steel, effectively making a sandwich of it.

However, there are other methods of construction that we can use, and the pedang you have provided a pic of shows one of these methods.Sometimes a cross section through a blade will show a steel core, sometimes it will not, and the steel will only appear at the cutting edge, or edges. Sometimes there will be no core at all.

Whatever method we may use is really immaterial. The end result is what matters.

Yes, the making of pamor can be considered to be closely allied with what we refer to as "pattern welding".

[BluErf]

I have a specific question - pls see attached pic. How does the empu get the black steel between the silver wengkon and the main silver pamor?

Also, the black steel is of a different tone from the steel at the cutting edge. The black spots in the middle of the pamor are of that different black steel. Why is that so?

[A. G. Maisey]

To be certain about why this occurred it would be necessary to examine the blade, rather than a picture, but the highest probability is that this is evidence of less than careful work.

[BluErf]

Yes, that could be so. This blade was collected in Lombok and attributed to Sumbawa, where kerises are not subject to warangan (hence pamor is not normally shown). Perhaps the smiths there are less careful in this aspect compared to places where warangan is used. Here's the rest of the keris.

[Marcokeris]

Beautiful!

[A. G. Maisey]

What method has been used to fix the pesi?

[BluErf]

Hi Alan, like clarify that if your "fix the pesi" meant how the ganja was secured onto the pesi?

The ganja is fitted over an enlarged oval portion at the base of the pesi, without the use of any metal wedges. No gaps are visible between the ganja and the pesi.

[A. G. Maisey]

Senior moment mate, senior moment. What I should have asked was "what method has been used to fix the gonjo to the pesi".

So, the base of the pesi was left larger, and that base was punched to expand it , giving a tight fit to the pesi. Is this correct? No adhesives anywhere? Check the gap between the gonjo and the blade base.

The garap in this blade is pretty good, and it does not seem at all similar in any way with the garap of blades that I have seen that definitely did come from Sumbawa.I could maybe be convinced it was Lombok---I'd need a bit of pushing, but maybe I'd wear Lombok. But Sumbawa? Naw---don't think so.

[BluErf]

Hi Alan,

Don't worry, I make that sort of slips all the time, and I've only just turned 30.

Yes, I'm quite positive there were no adhesives used. The white spot by the base of the pesi is actually the white of pamor. Nothing between the ganja and base of blade.

The collector in Lombok who sold this keris claimed that it was from Sumbawa, and the keris did come in a Bugis sheath with corresponding pistol-grip hilt. Are there Bugis settlements in Lombok? Or maybe a Lombok keris went over to Sumbawa?

[BluErf]

Lombok kerises are akin to Balinese kerises, I thought. In this case, the pesi looks absolutely Bugis - short and with a rounded end.

Also, there were a few other Bugis kerises attributed to Sumbawa that were collected in the same trip, one of which had the exact same prabots, but less refined and with 3 luk. That keris definitely is Bugis. Unfortunately, I don't have pictures of it handy.

All the 'Sumbawa' kerises from this collector were not washed with warangan, which was why I had no idea what the pamor was like, or that the black spots existed in the pamor, when the keris was purchased.

[A. G. Maisey]

Lombok keris from the old Balinese enclaves are like Bali keris. Lombok keris from the Javanese people there are like Javanese keris. Lombok keris from the Bugis people in Lombok are like Bugis keris.But some Lombok keris have a distinct Lombok personality, which tends to extremism.

Anybody can make any pesi look any way he wants to or needs to. You want to fit a Bugis hilt, you trim the pesi.

When were these keris collected?
pre 1939, or 1999---or later?

I've seen "rare and exotic" weaponry from isolated eastern islands that the seller supposedly swore on his mother's dying oath , had belonged to his great grandfather, but that according to what my experience told me, were straight out of Sumenep.

Put simply:- when something looks as good as this keris does, for me, it comes with an inbuilt question as to how many people could produce this sort of thing 100 years ago. Starting from that point it then goes under the microscope. Use a needle and see if you can dig some epoxy resin mixed with iron filings from between the blade base and the gonjo.

Put even more simply:- I doubt everything.

[BluErf]

I do not have info on the date of when the keris was collected in Lombok.

But the needle did not hit any epoxy between the base and the ganja, nor between the ganja and the pesi base. Just metal.

Before the keris was washed, there were quite some rust on certain spots of the keris, some of them are compact spots of rust which have grown into the blade. In fact, after washing, some of these stubborn rust spots still remain. Some parts of the edge have gone serrated due to rust and old cleaning.

The sheath was made for this keris and has all the patina and gunk associated with old age. there were old damage to the bottom of the sampir as well, which has been smoothened with age. The inside of the sampir is old, dusty and patinated. Does not looked like it had been disturbed for a very long time. The batang has a long age crack at the back and ends exactly where the tip of the blade is. The buntut is lost and gone.

The previous Lombok owner had not washed the keris since he acquired it because there were spots of gold left on the ganja and gandik which he was afraid to fall off when washed. True enough, when it was washed, all the gold on the ganja fell off, leaving only the 2 spots on the gandik.

I can't tell for sure if this keris is modern production or not, but it certainly had a certain grace which the modern-day tukang from sumenep (ok, at least for the few good sumenep I have seen ) couldn't reproduce, for all their skills. If this is a new keris, I bow to the maker for his skills.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I do tend to be a bit too cynical at times, but if you'd seen what I've seen, and know what I know, so would you be.

It certainly does have grace, and taking on board the additional information you've provided, it might have some age to it.

Provenance can say a lot, and if you have the provenance,and its solid, then that's some assurance.

[BluErf]

But I do appreciate why we need to be cynical and questioning, because of the increasing problem of new kerises being aged and passed off as old.

Provenance for this keris is really a question mark. But in a certain way, it was comforting because the previous owner didn't associate the keris with some lofty origins or royal relations, which would have turned me off right away. It was just the keris, where it was attributed to, and his price.

[A. G. Maisey]

In the final analysis it all comes down to whether you're happy.

If you're happy, that's all that needs to be said.