Sossun Pattah??

shayde78 · 11th February 2021, 07:33 PM

I will post much more complete information soon, but I just acquired this tulwar hilted sword, and wanted to try and get some preliminary impressions.
Would this be considered a sossun pattah? I've not seen one that is truly recurved (i.e. curving downward, then back up), so i don't know if this falls into that classification, or something else.
The blade is somewhat diminutive when compared to my only other example of a standard tulwar. However, it does have well executed triple fullers that are forged (rather than ground in). So I'm inclined to see this as a proper weapon.
As I said, I will post more complete details and pictures soon, but am.eager to hear from you all.
Thanks!

David R · 11th February 2021, 10:25 PM

I would suggest this is a "Naga" or snake blade rather than a Sosun Pata.

mariusgmioc · 11th February 2021, 10:26 PM

Yep, sossun pattah but I am not familiar with this type of blade. But I can distinguish some kind of Indian ricasso.

shayde78 · 11th February 2021, 11:00 PM

Thanks both for your quick replies!

As promised a bit more information, and some additional pictures (forgive the horrendous quality!).

The sword in question:
28" total length
23.25" blade
4mm blade thickness at hilt
1lb 2.4oz total weight

triple fullered
Indian ricasso (spot on Marius)

I'm showing below compared to a more traditional tulwar (weight 1lb 13.8 oz; just under 5mm blade thickness at hilt; total length 34.5")

Again, the pictures are bad - apologies.
[Oh, and this was part of a lot of rusty weapons - I will certainly be addressing the red rust in the near future. I also have an ancient looking kindjal that was part of this lot that I'll be posting on here soon - be on the look out!]

Battara · 12th February 2021, 02:09 AM

I know I'm going against the grain here, but I would not call this a sosun pata because I don't see the recurved blade like a yataghan.

shayde78 · 12th February 2021, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I know I'm going against the grain here, but I would not call this a sosun pata because I don't see the recurved blade like a yataghan.

Quite right, Battara, hence my question. Is this an exaggerated form of a sosun pattah, or an entirely different form? So far, I've found but one other example with a blade like this. It was called a sosun pattah, but, as you say, the swords typically called by that name have blades very much like a yataghan.

mariusgmioc · 12th February 2021, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I know I'm going against the grain here, but I would not call this a sosun pata because I don't see the recurved blade like a yataghan.

I can clearly see the recurved (consisting of two opposing curves) shape like a Yathagan.
Here below they are!
The first curve defines a concavity of the edge, the second a convexity.

So I think it IS a "sossun patah" or however it is spelled correctly.
However, the blade is somehow different from the classic sossun patah because it appears that the blade was recurved in later stages of its making.

Ian · 12th February 2021, 12:22 PM

I too think this is a recurved blade, but it does not resemble any other sossun patah I've seen.

Peter Andeweg · 12th February 2021, 02:02 PM

I don't believe we can consider this a Sosun Pattah. The Kopis form of the blade from the Sosun can be distinguished in two forms, the Indo-Islamic and the Hindu basket form. The Indo Islamic form is shaped like a willow leaf, hence the name Sosun Pattah in Urdu.

The Hindu basket hilted Sosun has a more crude curve, but a downward curve in the middle section of the blade. Both have chopping type of blade with a center of gravity to make it suitable for chopping.

A similar idea of blade construction can be found on the Nepalese Kukri.

Your blade's middle section is facing upwards which can be more seen as an Indian made type Yataghan.

Regards, Peter

shayde78 · 16th February 2021, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I too think this is a recurved blade, but it does not resemble any other sossun patah I've seen.

Atzi's site has some in the gallery of sold items. I'm not sure I'm allowed to post pictures from a commercial site but think I'm allowed if the items are no longer for sale. If someone can confirm, I'll pull some examples that, while not exactly the same, may be considered to be from the same family.

Ian · 16th February 2021, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

Atzi's site has some in the gallery of sold items. I'm not sure I'm allowed to post pictures from a commercial site but think I'm allowed if the items are no longer for sale. If someone can confirm, I'll pull some examples that, while not exactly the same, may be considered to be from the same family.

We accept pictures of sold items taken from commercial sites as long as there is no direct link to the site or other commercial traits visible in the picture. The pictures need to be uploaded here and not linked to.

shayde78 · 19th February 2021, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

We accept pictures of sold items taken from commercial sites as long as there is no direct link to the site or other commercial traits visible in the picture. The pictures need to be uploaded here and not linked to.

Thank you, Ian. The site in question does list the website in text on the images themselves. I could obscure this address by editing the image. However, I appreciate Atzi making an archive of past sold items available for research, so I don't want to use those images without proper attribution. The text is written under the item in the image, and there is no hyperlink. Would posting these be acceptable?

Bryce · 21st February 2021, 08:46 PM

G'day Guys,
I have a British sword circa 1815 with a recurved blade, similar to this one. My blade is a pipe-back and is 80cm long. The intent of the design seems to be to provide a curved cutting edge, with the point more inline for easier thrusting. Initially I had thought that perhaps the officer commissioned this sword based on similar blades he had seen in India, but until now hadn't seen any similar blades. In most sossun patahs, the final curve which brings the point back up is much shorter and the point is nowhere near inline with the hilt. Thanks for posting this.
Cheers,
Bryce

shayde78 · 22nd February 2021, 08:05 PM

Bryce - I have thought the SAME thing. The recurve brings the point up into alignment with the grip to facilitate a thrust. That said, a typical sabre typically has the point in line with the grip, too, so I'm not sure this alone explains this design. I also thought that, perhaps, the ergonomics change if the user were on horseback thrusting/slashing at a target standing on the ground. While that may be true for the example you shared, the diminutive size of the example from this thread makes me think this was not a cavalry weapon. Again, I may well be wrong. Still, it is nice tho know my line of thinking is not too divergent from others on here. Reassuring to me, perhaps concerning to you!

shayde78 · 22nd February 2021, 08:15 PM

Having received authorization to post the following pictures, I offer some examples of blades with similar curves, albeit none share the blade profile exactly, not are these from blades mounted in the typical tulwar hilt. Still, perhaps they can shine more of a light on intended function and/or region of the sub-continent where this shape was more common.

All of these examples are from Artzi's site. I am grateful he archives items that have been sold for others to use as reference. If you read this, thank you. To reiterate, all the examples below are listed as SOLD. If I have made an error, the moderators are welcome to remove.

The first example is to illustrate what would be more of a yataghan shape. This is to illustrate that the example that started this thread diverges significantly from this shape.

The second example starts to approximate the shape in question, but the second curve is still less pronounced.

Examples 3-5 show a similar curvature, but the blade gets markedly thicker towards the point, establishing these as effective choppers. (I think #5 is the one Artzi uses as his logo)

Examples 6-8 show similar blade profiles, but all different forms from the example upon which this thread is focused.

Overall, thoughts on any analysis these additional examples provide?

Bryce · 22nd February 2021, 10:31 PM

This comparison photo with a British 1796 light cavalry sabre illustrates the "point" a little better. With a typical sabre, in order to deliver the point to the target, the user has to drop their wrist. With a recurve, the wrist can remain in a stronger, more neutral position.
Cheers,
Bryce

shayde78 · 24th February 2021, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

This comparison photo with a British 1796 light cavalry sabre illustrates the "point" a little better. With a typical sabre, in order to deliver the point to the target, the user has to drop their wrist. With a recurve, the wrist can remain in a stronger, more neutral position.
Cheers,
Bryce

Bryce,

You are right about the orientation, and how this recurve design makes a thrust with the point much more efficient. I had to take my sword back in hand to fully appreciate what you were describing, and how it compares to the more common saber-bladed design. However, one additional thing I noticed, that I never really noticed before, is that the disc pommel of a typical tulwar hilt interferes with the wrist if you try to hold it like a thrusting sword. I'll try to take pictures and compare how the ergonomics revel themselves between this example, and one of my smallswords or my Pappenheim. In short, the roundish pommel on these swords designed for the thrust lies flat along the wrist when delivering a thrust. The tulwar disc does not. I know there has been much discussion about how the tulwar's hilt facilitates a draw cut through ergonomics alone. I always found that ot be true, but never really considered how it might limit other types of attacks with the blade.

All of that said, for the example you show with a Western style stirrup hilt, the thrust could be delivered quite efficiently.

shayde78 · 26th February 2021, 08:18 PM

I was reading this thread and in post #2, Philip states that Indian blades with multiple narrow fullers are associated with the 18th and 19th century. It occurred to me that, unless I missed it, no one offered an opinion about the possible age of this sword (whatever name we decide to call it). Any thoughts? Could it be as old as late 18th-early 19th century? Also, I know my pictures may prevent a good estimate from being made, but reading Philip's comments made me think the fullers alone might give an indication.

thanks, as always!

11th February 2021, 07:33 PM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Sossun Pattah?? I will post much more complete information soon, but I just acquired this tulwar hilted sword, and wanted to try and get some preliminary impressions. Would this be considered a sossun pattah? I've not seen one that is truly recurved (i.e. curving downward, then back up), so i don't know if this falls into that classification, or something else. The blade is somewhat diminutive when compared to my only other example of a standard tulwar. However, it does have well executed triple fullers that are forged (rather than ground in). So I'm inclined to see this as a proper weapon. As I said, I will post more complete details and pictures soon, but am.eager to hear from you all. Thanks! Attached Images

11th February 2021, 11:00 PM	#4
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thanks both for your quick replies! As promised a bit more information, and some additional pictures (forgive the horrendous quality!). The sword in question: 28" total length 23.25" blade 4mm blade thickness at hilt 1lb 2.4oz total weight triple fullered Indian ricasso (spot on Marius) I'm showing below compared to a more traditional tulwar (weight 1lb 13.8 oz; just under 5mm blade thickness at hilt; total length 34.5") Again, the pictures are bad - apologies. [Oh, and this was part of a lot of rusty weapons - I will certainly be addressing the red rust in the near future. I also have an ancient looking kindjal that was part of this lot that I'll be posting on here soon - be on the look out!] Attached Images Last edited by shayde78; 11th February 2021 at 11:11 PM.

21st February 2021, 08:46 PM	#13
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	G'day Guys, I have a British sword circa 1815 with a recurved blade, similar to this one. My blade is a pipe-back and is 80cm long. The intent of the design seems to be to provide a curved cutting edge, with the point more inline for easier thrusting. Initially I had thought that perhaps the officer commissioned this sword based on similar blades he had seen in India, but until now hadn't seen any similar blades. In most sossun patahs, the final curve which brings the point back up is much shorter and the point is nowhere near inline with the hilt. Thanks for posting this. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

22nd February 2021, 08:15 PM	#15
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Having received authorization to post the following pictures, I offer some examples of blades with similar curves, albeit none share the blade profile exactly, not are these from blades mounted in the typical tulwar hilt. Still, perhaps they can shine more of a light on intended function and/or region of the sub-continent where this shape was more common. All of these examples are from Artzi's site. I am grateful he archives items that have been sold for others to use as reference. If you read this, thank you. To reiterate, all the examples below are listed as SOLD. If I have made an error, the moderators are welcome to remove. The first example is to illustrate what would be more of a yataghan shape. This is to illustrate that the example that started this thread diverges significantly from this shape. The second example starts to approximate the shape in question, but the second curve is still less pronounced. Examples 3-5 show a similar curvature, but the blade gets markedly thicker towards the point, establishing these as effective choppers. (I think #5 is the one Artzi uses as his logo) Examples 6-8 show similar blade profiles, but all different forms from the example upon which this thread is focused. Overall, thoughts on any analysis these additional examples provide? Attached Images

22nd February 2021, 10:31 PM	#16
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	This comparison photo with a British 1796 light cavalry sabre illustrates the "point" a little better. With a typical sabre, in order to deliver the point to the target, the user has to drop their wrist. With a recurve, the wrist can remain in a stronger, more neutral position. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

11th February 2021, 10:25 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I would suggest this is a "Naga" or snake blade rather than a Sosun Pata.

11th February 2021, 10:26 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Yep, sossun pattah but I am not familiar with this type of blade. But I can distinguish some kind of Indian ricasso.

12th February 2021, 02:09 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I know I'm going against the grain here, but I would not call this a sosun pata because I don't see the recurved blade like a yataghan.

12th February 2021, 12:22 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	I too think this is a recurved blade, but it does not resemble any other sossun patah I've seen.

12th February 2021, 02:02 PM	#9
Peter Andeweg Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands Posts: 71	I don't believe we can consider this a Sosun Pattah. The Kopis form of the blade from the Sosun can be distinguished in two forms, the Indo-Islamic and the Hindu basket form. The Indo Islamic form is shaped like a willow leaf, hence the name Sosun Pattah in Urdu. The Hindu basket hilted Sosun has a more crude curve, but a downward curve in the middle section of the blade. Both have chopping type of blade with a center of gravity to make it suitable for chopping. A similar idea of blade construction can be found on the Nepalese Kukri. Your blade's middle section is facing upwards which can be more seen as an Indian made type Yataghan. Regards, Peter

22nd February 2021, 08:05 PM	#14
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Bryce - I have thought the SAME thing. The recurve brings the point up into alignment with the grip to facilitate a thrust. That said, a typical sabre typically has the point in line with the grip, too, so I'm not sure this alone explains this design. I also thought that, perhaps, the ergonomics change if the user were on horseback thrusting/slashing at a target standing on the ground. While that may be true for the example you shared, the diminutive size of the example from this thread makes me think this was not a cavalry weapon. Again, I may well be wrong. Still, it is nice tho know my line of thinking is not too divergent from others on here. Reassuring to me, perhaps concerning to you!

26th February 2021, 08:18 PM	#18
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	I was reading this thread and in post #2, Philip states that Indian blades with multiple narrow fullers are associated with the 18th and 19th century. It occurred to me that, unless I missed it, no one offered an opinion about the possible age of this sword (whatever name we decide to call it). Any thoughts? Could it be as old as late 18th-early 19th century? Also, I know my pictures may prevent a good estimate from being made, but reading Philip's comments made me think the fullers alone might give an indication. thanks, as always!