PARANG PANDIT

Dajak · 3rd April 2006, 07:23 AM

According to Stone A Seadyak sword

VVV · 3rd April 2006, 09:04 AM

Very nice Pandat Dajak!

I think Stone attributed a bit to much to Sea Dayaks.
As you know he also thought that the Kampilan originally was a Sea Dayak weapon.
Have you noticed that most of Stone's Indonesian sword and dagger pictures are copied directly from the Leiden catalogues (f.i. Fischer's on Sumatra)?

Michael

Dajak · 3rd April 2006, 10:45 PM

Hi Michael this is true but don t forget that this one is from north west Sarawak those people lived very close to the Iban .

The Design on the scabbard is Iban no land dyak

VVV · 3rd April 2006, 11:22 PM

Hi Dajak,

I must admit I haven't studied Iban design overall enough to analyse your scabbard motives.
But I think I can find a similar scabbard pattern on one of my Pandat below.
According to Shelford's classification both of our Pandat are Sidin Land Dayak
(please correct me if I am mistaken on this?).
Could it be that the Land Dayaks were either inspired by the Iban patterns or that they share resembling motives?
This based on your argument that some of the Iban are neighbours to the Land Dayaks?

Michael

Dajak · 4th April 2006, 11:55 PM

Hi Michael the problem with these things is that who did have first the pandit
the Ibans or the land dayaks .

If You have the book basic Iban design you can find it in there the design that is on the scabbard

The problem with these things is that the pandats mostly very old and difficult trace back off the origin off the sword but it is more likely that this type off pandat has the origin by the Ibans .

They where the mostly headhunters off al the dayaks are from borneo ,
It was never used as an tool only for head hunting.

If anyone have pics from people with pandats like them to see.

By the way very nice pandat

VVV · 5th April 2006, 12:42 AM

Hi Dajak,

Yes, I have that book as well as the new Iban Art book.
I had a look in them both, as well as couple of other general Dayak design books, but the only Iban resembling pattern on your scabbard I could find was variations of the general leaf pattern.
This is a pattern variation that also is found among several other tribes.
I specifically looked for the "fish" symbol on your scabbard but couldn't find it anywhere as Iban.
I also tried to find the diagonal checkered pattern in the Iban design books.
Please give me some hints on where to look?
I haven't seen any proof that the Pandat has been used by the Ibans after late 19th C. Do you agree?
If Pandat originally was an Iban Parang, why did they then stop using it and why did the Land Dayaks take over it?
And why did the old field researchers only attribute it to the Land Dayaks?
But I guess that Stone got it from some old source that I missed?
Do you know which?

Michael

RhysMichael · 5th April 2006, 01:20 AM

Dominique Buttin attibuted them to the land dyaks on his site
http://old.blades.free.fr/
I beleive most of his information comes from ""Catalogue de la Collection d'Armes Anciennes, Européennes et Orientales" " by Chales Buttin

Dajak · 5th April 2006, 07:11 AM

Hi he did that after I send him the shelford publication and pics off the
pandat because that is the same as the one pictured overhere

Micheal he might got some imformation from

Ling Roth The natives off Sarawak and British Borneo 1869

I have an sword that was an bringback by an British officer in 1820

So english where very early there before shelford make the publication more than 100 years ago before he makes the publication

VVV · 5th April 2006, 09:50 AM

Hi Ben,

I have read Ling Roth's book but I think it's very cryptic regarding his description of Dayak swords. Sometimes I suspect that he mixes up names of the swords (Nabur vs Niabor) and a lot seems to come from hearsay. So if Ling Roth is the main source I fully understand why Stone also had problems with classifying some weapons.
Another example is his description of the Dukn. A van Zonneveld obviously chooses only to quote it in his excellent book, maybe because it's hard to figure out what it really is? My guess (!) is that it's the Iban Pedang that resembles the Batak Piso Podang.
Enclosed is a page from Ling Roth on the Parang Pandit (I think?).
If that's the page then he attributes it to the Hill tribes instead of the Sea Dayaks.
I also have enclosed a nice illustration from the same book of a Pandat that resembles yours. Also note that Ling Roth attributes the Kampilan in the same illustration to the Lanun tribe.

This thread more and more looks like a discussion only between us so unless somebody else would like to participate maybe we should continue it off forum?

And I am sure that we all would like to see the 1820 bring back sword.

Michael

PS RhysMichael, Charles Buttin's Catalogue is a catalogue of his collection. I don't have it with me at the moment but I think there is only one plate in it of Indonesian weapons. I find the D Buttin site very well researched and you can find a separate reference list on the site with several good books and articles.

Dajak · 5th April 2006, 09:42 PM

I show you the sword when you visit me other wise I have nothing news for you to see.

VVV · 28th April 2009, 09:47 AM

I am reviving this old thread to share two pandat I have acquired since then.
I also hope other forumites could share there variations so we could have a nice reference thread.
The first one with unusually nice scabbard carvings.

Michael

PS I have cleaned the blade after I took the pictures...

VVV · 28th April 2009, 09:52 AM

The second one is a hybride between the long (Sidin) and short (Bennah) variation.
Also the pin on the grip is unusally long.

Michael

CharlesS · 28th April 2009, 02:19 PM

Both magnificent examples VVV. I am drooling.

What is the approximate age of each?

VVV · 28th April 2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

...What is the approximate age of each?

I have no idea on how to estimate the age of a pandat by features and styles.
So by looking on patina and work details my guess is mid to late 19th C (in order).
I have been told from a local source that the Pandat wasn't manufactured after the 1930's.

Michael

migueldiaz · 28th April 2009, 05:21 PM

Hi Michael and Dajak,

Thanks for the pics and the info!

What would be the theory or speculation behind the bifurcated end of the sword? Am very much interested in knowing what the hypotheses are!

Thanks in advance ...

Maurice · 28th April 2009, 05:42 PM

Hi Michael,

Great examples. I especially like the carvings on the scabbard of pandat 3.
But why do you think the scabbard is made so long (according to the blade) and "kinked" at the end?
Or do you think it was just a "fashion" thing at that time or characteristic by the carver, just like te protrusion the pandat scabbard you depicted earlier in this same thread could be?

I think your advantage by having this larger scabbard is that you have more of those nice carvings....

Kind regards,
Maurice

Sajen · 28th April 2009, 05:50 PM

Hello Michael,

great finds. Unfortunately I don't have a Pandat to show!

sajen

VVV · 28th April 2009, 08:50 PM

Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum.
It clearly is a no-thrusting-chopping-only-weapon so I don't think that there ever was a functional tip.
I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly.
So I assume it's a prestige thing?
Like mine is longer than yours...

Michael

asomotif · 29th April 2009, 12:33 AM

Hello Michael,

Nice examples.
I like the theory by Maurice :

PHP Code:


			
larger scabbard is that you have more of those nice carvings

But could there be Taiwan/Paiwan influences on the scabbard shape / length ?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=paiwan

Best regards,
Willem

fearn · 29th April 2009, 05:50 AM

Hi Willem,

When you compare the baiwan and the dayak blades, I think you might be seeing echoes of a shared ancestral culture.

The archeologists and linguisted showed that the ancestral Indonesian/Polynesian culture originated in Taiwan, spread south through Indonesia, then west along the coasts into Polynesia.

These cultures share motifs of canoes, headhunting, and similar. One can see the canoe prow both in the scabbards and in the tips of some of the swords. I suspect it's supposed to be the silhouette of a war canoe in all of these blades, although I'm not sure exactly why.

As for the bifurcated tip, I'd guess it's supposed to be something like a crocodile mouth, but I'm not sure.

Still, the pandit's definitely one of the 10 weirdest blades on the planet, and I'd love to know what it's like to hit something with it. All that square-edged metal in the handle might be painful.

F

migueldiaz · 29th April 2009, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum.
It clearly is a no-thrusting-chopping-only-weapon so I don't think that there ever was a functional tip.
I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly.
So I assume it's a prestige thing?
Like mine is longer than yours...

Michael

Thanks Michael for the comments.

For a while, I thought we have here a possible lead on the origin of the similarly bifurcated blade tip of the kampilan.

Thanks just the same for the response!

migueldiaz · 29th April 2009, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

As for the bifurcated tip, I'd guess it's supposed to be something like a crocodile mouth, but I'm not sure.

Hi Fearn. If they like the Moros and other Phil. ethnic groups venerated also the croc, then that must be it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Still, the pandit's definitely one of the 10 weirdest blades on the planet ...

And what would be the other nine?

Maurice · 29th April 2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly.
So I assume it's a prestige thing?
Like mine is longer than yours...

Michael

So it is just as my purse.
I have a very large purse (like the mine is bigger as yours thing), but don't look into it.
By the way it is made by onionleather. Every time when I look in it I have to cry...

Gavin Nugent · 29th April 2009, 09:08 PM

Gents, this is one thread I am finding very interesting.

Would this image I have presented fall into the same area of discussion or is it a totally different animal?

Gav

VVV · 29th April 2009, 10:19 PM

Gav,

Yours is neither a Pandat nor a Land Dayak weapon.
However it's a gorgeous example of a Sadap of the neighbouring Melanau tribe.
Please share more pictures of it, maybe in a separate thread.

Michael

kai · 30th April 2009, 01:32 AM

Congrats, Michael, those are great examples!

Regards,
Kai

Gavin Nugent · 30th April 2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Gav,

Yours is neither a Pandat nor a Land Dayak weapon.
However it's a gorgeous example of a Sadap of the neighbouring Melanau tribe.
Please share more pictures of it, maybe in a separate thread.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I'd love to share more of it for all to see but it is for sale and I believe it is a breach of forum protocols to openly discuss items for sale. I will be more than happy to engage in private correspondence about this wonderful piece and supply images to all interested parties. I knew it was quite unusual and what I consider very rare but I honestly thought it was just a gorgeous version of the Land Dayak weapon and I thought to offer it up as comparison.

thanks

Gav

VVV · 30th April 2009, 08:25 AM

Hi Gav,

Maybe you can share more pictures after it has been sold?

Michael

Gavin Nugent · 30th April 2009, 08:36 AM

Thank you Michael, I would be more than happy to do so. Perhaps you can PM me with all the information that you would like to see posted and I can compile it before it goes.

regards

Gav

Mytribalworld · 9th May 2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have no idea on how to estimate the age of a pandat by features and styles.
So by looking on patina and work details my guess is mid to late 19th C (in order).
I have been told from a local source that the Pandat wasn't manufactured after the 1930's.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Nice examples again ! I have a old book that where the writer ( 1865) describes the use of the parang latok, In my opinion close related to the pandat. At first he mentioned that the sword was a Malay influence and was already in disuse for warlike purpose course blades from europe where imported which where cheaper.

Interesting is that he explaines the use ( parang latok) as beiing used at two different ways. The one for small jobs like chopping wood,where they hold the sword in the nick of the blade for a better grip.
The other way is for an very effective blow where you use the blade in his full length and first slash the blade into the wound and then pull the entire length trough the wound which maybe explain why the handle is that simple.
The sword has to be taken between the fingers when pulling trough the wound. I can also imagine that a head can be chopped off with one blow that way.

Your pandat with the holes drilled in it can be very old I think and I see some similarity with designs of the malay Anak Wali ( see spirit of wood) so maybe closer to the source? ( just a guess)

Arjan.

3rd April 2006, 07:23 AM	#1
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	PARANG PANDIT According to Stone A Seadyak sword Attached Images

3rd April 2006, 11:22 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Dajak, I must admit I haven't studied Iban design overall enough to analyse your scabbard motives. But I think I can find a similar scabbard pattern on one of my Pandat below. According to Shelford's classification both of our Pandat are Sidin Land Dayak (please correct me if I am mistaken on this?). Could it be that the Land Dayaks were either inspired by the Iban patterns or that they share resembling motives? This based on your argument that some of the Iban are neighbours to the Land Dayaks? Michael Attached Images

5th April 2006, 09:50 AM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Ben, I have read Ling Roth's book but I think it's very cryptic regarding his description of Dayak swords. Sometimes I suspect that he mixes up names of the swords (Nabur vs Niabor) and a lot seems to come from hearsay. So if Ling Roth is the main source I fully understand why Stone also had problems with classifying some weapons. Another example is his description of the Dukn. A van Zonneveld obviously chooses only to quote it in his excellent book, maybe because it's hard to figure out what it really is? My guess (!) is that it's the Iban Pedang that resembles the Batak Piso Podang. Enclosed is a page from Ling Roth on the Parang Pandit (I think?). If that's the page then he attributes it to the Hill tribes instead of the Sea Dayaks. I also have enclosed a nice illustration from the same book of a Pandat that resembles yours. Also note that Ling Roth attributes the Kampilan in the same illustration to the Lanun tribe. This thread more and more looks like a discussion only between us so unless somebody else would like to participate maybe we should continue it off forum? And I am sure that we all would like to see the 1820 bring back sword. Michael PS RhysMichael, Charles Buttin's Catalogue is a catalogue of his collection. I don't have it with me at the moment but I think there is only one plate in it of Indonesian weapons. I find the D Buttin site very well researched and you can find a separate reference list on the site with several good books and articles. Attached Images

28th April 2009, 09:47 AM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Pandat 3 I am reviving this old thread to share two pandat I have acquired since then. I also hope other forumites could share there variations so we could have a nice reference thread. The first one with unusually nice scabbard carvings. Michael PS I have cleaned the blade after I took the pictures... Attached Images

28th April 2009, 09:52 AM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Pandat 4 The second one is a hybride between the long (Sidin) and short (Bennah) variation. Also the pin on the grip is unusally long. Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 28th April 2009 at 10:03 AM.

3rd April 2006, 09:04 AM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Very nice Pandat Dajak! I think Stone attributed a bit to much to Sea Dayaks. As you know he also thought that the Kampilan originally was a Sea Dayak weapon. Have you noticed that most of Stone's Indonesian sword and dagger pictures are copied directly from the Leiden catalogues (f.i. Fischer's on Sumatra)? Michael

3rd April 2006, 10:45 PM	#3
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael this is true but don t forget that this one is from north west Sarawak those people lived very close to the Iban . The Design on the scabbard is Iban no land dyak

4th April 2006, 11:55 PM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael the problem with these things is that who did have first the pandit the Ibans or the land dayaks . If You have the book basic Iban design you can find it in there the design that is on the scabbard The problem with these things is that the pandats mostly very old and difficult trace back off the origin off the sword but it is more likely that this type off pandat has the origin by the Ibans . They where the mostly headhunters off al the dayaks are from borneo , It was never used as an tool only for head hunting. If anyone have pics from people with pandats like them to see. By the way very nice pandat

5th April 2006, 12:42 AM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Dajak, Yes, I have that book as well as the new Iban Art book. I had a look in them both, as well as couple of other general Dayak design books, but the only Iban resembling pattern on your scabbard I could find was variations of the general leaf pattern. This is a pattern variation that also is found among several other tribes. I specifically looked for the "fish" symbol on your scabbard but couldn't find it anywhere as Iban. I also tried to find the diagonal checkered pattern in the Iban design books. Please give me some hints on where to look? I haven't seen any proof that the Pandat has been used by the Ibans after late 19th C. Do you agree? If Pandat originally was an Iban Parang, why did they then stop using it and why did the Land Dayaks take over it? And why did the old field researchers only attribute it to the Land Dayaks? But I guess that Stone got it from some old source that I missed? Do you know which? Michael

5th April 2006, 01:20 AM	#7
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Dominique Buttin attibuted them to the land dyaks on his site http://old.blades.free.fr/ I beleive most of his information comes from ""Catalogue de la Collection d'Armes Anciennes, Européennes et Orientales" " by Chales Buttin

5th April 2006, 07:11 AM	#8
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi he did that after I send him the shelford publication and pics off the pandat because that is the same as the one pictured overhere Micheal he might got some imformation from Ling Roth The natives off Sarawak and British Borneo 1869 I have an sword that was an bringback by an British officer in 1820 So english where very early there before shelford make the publication more than 100 years ago before he makes the publication

5th April 2006, 09:42 PM	#10
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	I show you the sword when you visit me other wise I have nothing news for you to see.

28th April 2009, 02:19 PM	#13
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Both magnificent examples VVV. I am drooling. What is the approximate age of each?

28th April 2009, 05:21 PM	#15
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Hi Michael and Dajak, Thanks for the pics and the info! What would be the theory or speculation behind the bifurcated end of the sword? Am very much interested in knowing what the hypotheses are! Thanks in advance ...

28th April 2009, 05:42 PM	#16
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	Hi Michael, Great examples. I especially like the carvings on the scabbard of pandat 3. But why do you think the scabbard is made so long (according to the blade) and "kinked" at the end? Or do you think it was just a "fashion" thing at that time or characteristic by the carver, just like te protrusion the pandat scabbard you depicted earlier in this same thread could be? I think your advantage by having this larger scabbard is that you have more of those nice carvings.... Kind regards, Maurice

28th April 2009, 05:50 PM	#17
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	Hello Michael, great finds. Unfortunately I don't have a Pandat to show! sajen

28th April 2009, 08:50 PM	#18
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum. It clearly is a no-thrusting-chopping-only-weapon so I don't think that there ever was a functional tip. I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly. So I assume it's a prestige thing? Like mine is longer than yours... Michael

29th April 2009, 12:33 AM	#19
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hello Michael, Nice examples. I like the theory by Maurice : PHP Code: `larger scabbard is that you have more of those nice carvings` But could there be Taiwan/Paiwan influences on the scabbard shape / length ? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=paiwan Best regards, Willem

29th April 2009, 05:50 AM	#20
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Willem, When you compare the baiwan and the dayak blades, I think you might be seeing echoes of a shared ancestral culture. The archeologists and linguisted showed that the ancestral Indonesian/Polynesian culture originated in Taiwan, spread south through Indonesia, then west along the coasts into Polynesia. These cultures share motifs of canoes, headhunting, and similar. One can see the canoe prow both in the scabbards and in the tips of some of the swords. I suspect it's supposed to be the silhouette of a war canoe in all of these blades, although I'm not sure exactly why. As for the bifurcated tip, I'd guess it's supposed to be something like a crocodile mouth, but I'm not sure. Still, the pandit's definitely one of the 10 weirdest blades on the planet, and I'd love to know what it's like to hit something with it. All that square-edged metal in the handle might be painful. F

29th April 2009, 09:08 PM	#24
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Very interesting Gents, this is one thread I am finding very interesting. Would this image I have presented fall into the same area of discussion or is it a totally different animal? Gav Attached Images

29th April 2009, 10:19 PM	#25
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Gav, Yours is neither a Pandat nor a Land Dayak weapon. However it's a gorgeous example of a Sadap of the neighbouring Melanau tribe. Please share more pictures of it, maybe in a separate thread. Michael

30th April 2009, 01:32 AM	#26
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Congrats, Michael, those are great examples! Regards, Kai

30th April 2009, 08:25 AM	#28
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Gav, Maybe you can share more pictures after it has been sold? Michael

30th April 2009, 08:36 AM	#29
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thank you Michael Thank you Michael, I would be more than happy to do so. Perhaps you can PM me with all the information that you would like to see posted and I can compile it before it goes. regards Gav