New Kilij: need help

ariel · 16th June 2006, 01:40 PM

Just arrived.
Typical Ottoman Kilij, likely 19th century.The scabbard is clad wth repousseed brass with animal ornaments (horses and birds mainly) and flowers. There are repousseed inscriptions in the medallions on each side of the scabbard. The middle part lacks leather and has very old thin fabric; looks like something original, put under the leather. The ring fitting looks newer; strangely, it is constructed for a baldric, which is more Mameluke/Arabian rather than Turkish. There is a thin brass strip running along the gap, with minimal incised decoration. Why? If leather was supposed to be there, what was the purpose?
The handle is rhino horn, classic pistol grip.
The blade is very nice. It has a lot of worn-out koftgari, and I cannot read the date (too little is left). The spine is ribbed all along, and the percussion point is clearly marked with the twist in the T-spine and golden mark.
If tapped at the base, the blade emits dull, boring sound. It gradually gets marginally better as one taps closer and closer to the point and, suddenly, just a centimeter distal to the percussion point, the sound becomes crystal clear, ringing like a bell. Another centimeter, and it again becomes duller and duller.
Questions:
-Please try to read inscriptions on the scabbard
-What can you say about animal decorations? I do not recall anything like that on Turkish swords.
- Was the suspension re-done to suit Arabian taste?
-Is it usual to see fabric (muslin-like) under leather?
- Brass strip: any purpose or just quick fix of something?
- Have you encountered a similar change in sound in other kilijes? I tested my other one: no effect.

ariel · 16th June 2006, 01:42 PM

More pics.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th June 2006, 03:28 PM

Ariel,

I can only answer a few of your questions. I cannot read the inscritions on the scabbard, too vague. The scabbard brass seems like a recent, low quality Syrian job, unlike the blade and hilt. As for the suspension, that doesnt look arabian at all, arabian tassles are very long, and have a very complex attachment which allows the sword to be slung comfortably over the shoulder. These require two seperate rings. Unlike this double ring. The brass strip looks like it was applied to secure the wood somehow, and strengthen it.

Very nice piece Ariel, I can provide an old pic (1933) with a bedouin man wearing one of these swords. I wonder if these swords were made in Damascus, or Istanbul or somewhere else. We know that the slim blade kilics were made in both cities, but what about these ones.

ariel · 16th June 2006, 04:04 PM

Ain't no modern or even recent Damascus bazaar job!
Believe me, it is really old.
I am not talking about a tassel: those could be attached and removed at will and prove nothing.Ottoman Turks carried their swords hanging on the side and used 2 rings on the same side of the scabbard. This one has 2 rings on the opposite sides of the same fitting: baldric is the only way to explain. This fitting is a later addition: my guess the original Turkish arrangement was replaced with the "Arabian" one. At the same time it shows that the restof the brasswork is much older and better made.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th June 2006, 04:55 PM

This one certainly looks old, but with newer elements such as the thing that fixes the rings to the scabbard, is clearly newer than the other brass fittings. The reason I say this is because as of late, antiques dealers in damascus are increasingly meddling with any old piece they obtain, trying to restore it, and ending with a completely new scabbard or hilt and destroying the older valuable one. As for the arrangement of the rings, again, this is not an arabian arrangement, this is a typical arab arrangement from your own collection:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=frog

katana · 17th June 2006, 04:58 PM

Ariel, if you want to obtain musical notes from tapping metal... may I suggest bells

As you know I have no knowledge of these types of swords, but I do like it....not so keen on the scabbard though

Tim Simmons · 17th June 2006, 05:11 PM

It all depends on what S.Al-Anizi means by recent. Some people would call the late 19th century recent. I would say judging by the remains of gilding on the scabbard, it is from around the turn of the 19th century. The blade is probably a lot earlier. To me the blade and handle look made to a higher standard but the scabbard has definitely been made for this sword. I know nothing of these really

S.Al-Anizi · 17th June 2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

It all depends on what S.Al-Anizi means by recent. Some people would call the late 19th century recent. I would say judging by the remains of gilding on the scabbard, it is from around the turn of the 19th century. The blade is probably a lot earlier. To me the blade and handle look made to a higher standard but the scabbard has definitely been made for this sword. I know nothing of these really

By recent, I actually meant late 20th century, regarding the brass fittings on the scabbard, however, I cant, and no one can, be sure of their date, they could be very old. Im not assuring anything here, most of this is speculation.

The reason I say this is because Ive seen, and owned a couple of newly made syrian kilijs with the same kind of thin brasswork, locally called 'sabk', with the same discolouration and oxidisation as that on Ariels sword scabbard. It could be however, that this is a continuation of a tradition. The blade and hilt however, seem to be much older, and of excellent quality.

ariel · 17th June 2006, 07:47 PM

The small, rhomboid fittings are unquestionaby new: different color, lower quality etc.
But the large ones are old; this is supported by the wood of the scabbard: very old, very dry, very used.Tough to imagine that the supposed renovation involved brass fittings only, with quite a lot of work and the need to adjust it for the existing dimensions of the wood inserts of the scabbard, when making an entirely new scabbard was so much easier: fittings first, wood later.

Yannis · 17th June 2006, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Ariel, if you want to obtain musical notes from tapping metal... may I suggest bells

Well, talking about baldrics, there is an anecdote. During the Greek revolution against Ottoman rule (1821-1829) the fashion about hanging the kilij had change, from the belt to the shoulder (with baldric). As it happens in all fashions the older rebels were more conservative and used the belt. In a meeting they were talking about swords and an old man, to tease a younger that was very proud about his blade, he said:
“Why do you carry this bell around?”

So, Ariel, you are not the first

Seriously now, I envy this sword

ariel · 28th June 2006, 12:41 PM

This one just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Remarkably similar to mine. The seller sent me pics: same materials, similar ornaments and same suspension system.

Valjhun · 28th June 2006, 06:27 PM

Well, I thik thoose are syrian, just a guess thou. Mr. Yarom sold 4/5 of that type, take a look at his site, maybe he has a better idea of provenience.

Rick · 28th June 2006, 07:01 PM

Ariel , I think that cloth may be what's left of the original embossed leather . Often that material was made from very thin leather bonded to a stiffer cloth backing to help the embossing keep its shape .

16th June 2006, 01:40 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	New Kilij: need help Just arrived. Typical Ottoman Kilij, likely 19th century.The scabbard is clad wth repousseed brass with animal ornaments (horses and birds mainly) and flowers. There are repousseed inscriptions in the medallions on each side of the scabbard. The middle part lacks leather and has very old thin fabric; looks like something original, put under the leather. The ring fitting looks newer; strangely, it is constructed for a baldric, which is more Mameluke/Arabian rather than Turkish. There is a thin brass strip running along the gap, with minimal incised decoration. Why? If leather was supposed to be there, what was the purpose? The handle is rhino horn, classic pistol grip. The blade is very nice. It has a lot of worn-out koftgari, and I cannot read the date (too little is left). The spine is ribbed all along, and the percussion point is clearly marked with the twist in the T-spine and golden mark. If tapped at the base, the blade emits dull, boring sound. It gradually gets marginally better as one taps closer and closer to the point and, suddenly, just a centimeter distal to the percussion point, the sound becomes crystal clear, ringing like a bell. Another centimeter, and it again becomes duller and duller. Questions: -Please try to read inscriptions on the scabbard -What can you say about animal decorations? I do not recall anything like that on Turkish swords. - Was the suspension re-done to suit Arabian taste? -Is it usual to see fabric (muslin-like) under leather? - Brass strip: any purpose or just quick fix of something? - Have you encountered a similar change in sound in other kilijes? I tested my other one: no effect. Attached Images

16th June 2006, 01:42 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	More pics. Attached Images

28th June 2006, 07:01 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	The Scabbard Ariel , I think that cloth may be what's left of the original embossed leather . Often that material was made from very thin leather bonded to a stiffer cloth backing to help the embossing keep its shape .

16th June 2006, 03:28 PM	#3
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Ariel, I can only answer a few of your questions. I cannot read the inscritions on the scabbard, too vague. The scabbard brass seems like a recent, low quality Syrian job, unlike the blade and hilt. As for the suspension, that doesnt look arabian at all, arabian tassles are very long, and have a very complex attachment which allows the sword to be slung comfortably over the shoulder. These require two seperate rings. Unlike this double ring. The brass strip looks like it was applied to secure the wood somehow, and strengthen it. Very nice piece Ariel, I can provide an old pic (1933) with a bedouin man wearing one of these swords. I wonder if these swords were made in Damascus, or Istanbul or somewhere else. We know that the slim blade kilics were made in both cities, but what about these ones.

16th June 2006, 04:04 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ain't no modern or even recent Damascus bazaar job! Believe me, it is really old. I am not talking about a tassel: those could be attached and removed at will and prove nothing.Ottoman Turks carried their swords hanging on the side and used 2 rings on the same side of the scabbard. This one has 2 rings on the opposite sides of the same fitting: baldric is the only way to explain. This fitting is a later addition: my guess the original Turkish arrangement was replaced with the "Arabian" one. At the same time it shows that the restof the brasswork is much older and better made.

16th June 2006, 04:55 PM	#5
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	This one certainly looks old, but with newer elements such as the thing that fixes the rings to the scabbard, is clearly newer than the other brass fittings. The reason I say this is because as of late, antiques dealers in damascus are increasingly meddling with any old piece they obtain, trying to restore it, and ending with a completely new scabbard or hilt and destroying the older valuable one. As for the arrangement of the rings, again, this is not an arabian arrangement, this is a typical arab arrangement from your own collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=frog

17th June 2006, 04:58 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Ariel, if you want to obtain musical notes from tapping metal... may I suggest bells As you know I have no knowledge of these types of swords, but I do like it....not so keen on the scabbard though

17th June 2006, 05:11 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	It all depends on what S.Al-Anizi means by recent. Some people would call the late 19th century recent. I would say judging by the remains of gilding on the scabbard, it is from around the turn of the 19th century. The blade is probably a lot earlier. To me the blade and handle look made to a higher standard but the scabbard has definitely been made for this sword. I know nothing of these really

17th June 2006, 07:47 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The small, rhomboid fittings are unquestionaby new: different color, lower quality etc. But the large ones are old; this is supported by the wood of the scabbard: very old, very dry, very used.Tough to imagine that the supposed renovation involved brass fittings only, with quite a lot of work and the need to adjust it for the existing dimensions of the wood inserts of the scabbard, when making an entirely new scabbard was so much easier: fittings first, wood later.

28th June 2006, 12:41 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This one just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Remarkably similar to mine. The seller sent me pics: same materials, similar ornaments and same suspension system.

28th June 2006, 06:27 PM	#12
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well, I thik thoose are syrian, just a guess thou. Mr. Yarom sold 4/5 of that type, take a look at his site, maybe he has a better idea of provenience.