Unknown European Sword

Norman McCormick · 29th March 2017, 07:28 PM

Hi,
I'm hoping you can help me I.D. this sword. O. A. length 38 inches, blade length 33 inches. Gilt fittings, rain guard, grooved wooden grip with wire wrap. Blade is flexible and seems well tempered. There are no blade stamps or marks that I can find. Some small nicks in blade but of course this could mean something or nothing!
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 2nd April 2017, 04:48 AM

Hi Norman,
Hard to find anything specific on this as it seems to be a 'Historismus' oriented court sword very much in Italianate style (the heads facing varied directions) and likely 19th century. Arms of these types were I believe accoutrements which were limited and pretty much isolated as far as production. One would have to identify the heads as to the symbolism or allegorical significance, and the Italian nature simply fashionable in these times.
I had thought of somethin fraternal, but there would be markings or symbols in blade inscriptions. Interesting and attractive piece, and maybe somebody out there might have more insight.

carlos · 2nd April 2017, 09:07 AM

There are similar swords from Spain.
In spanish webs are similar, in Google You could search " espada de ceñir Toledo " ordenar "espadin Toledo "
Carlos

Norman McCormick · 4th April 2017, 07:53 PM

Hi Jim,
Thanks for having a shot at this. I suspect this is a 19thC continental court sword possibly Iberia or France. The attached images are tagged as French court swords although I couldn't verify the veracity of this opinion.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Carlos,
Thanks for the links. There are a quite a few similar so I guess we are on the right track.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 4th April 2017, 08:03 PM

Very nice sleuthing Norman!!!
This one has been driving me nuts

and as Carlos noted, the hilt style in very much in line with Spanish officers swords, but this classical noir theme is really a puzzle. I found a bronze Chinese sword (B.C.) which had a warrior or human face forward, with the Chinese type dragon heads on each side facing outward in the same configuration.
It is clear this is a courtly sword of some kind, and in this sphere (Iberia, France and Italy) classical themes seem to have been employed allegorically quite often in material culture, extending into weaponry fashion.

It would be great to find out what this arrangement means, and it is amazing you found these other examples!!!

carlos · 4th April 2017, 09:27 PM

Another similar sword ...

Norman McCormick · 4th April 2017, 10:24 PM

Hi Carlos,
I think you've hit the nail on the head. The first sword C1850 has more or less the same configuration re pommel and crossguard as my sword. I would now say with reasonable confidence that my sword is a Spanish officer's sword from the reign of Isabella II. The blade on mine seems more substantial than those illustrated and being of a reasonable length it may be a dress sword for cavalry rather than infantry. Many thanks for your efforts on my behalf.
My Regards,
Norman.

carlos · 5th April 2017, 12:25 PM

Thanks to you , thanks for post this beautiful sword !
best regards
carlos

Hotspur · 6th April 2017, 08:33 AM

The pommel is familiar enough that I'll add this one I had bought as French. The grip is plastic.

Cheers

GC

29th March 2017, 07:28 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Unknown European Sword Hi, I'm hoping you can help me I.D. this sword. O. A. length 38 inches, blade length 33 inches. Gilt fittings, rain guard, grooved wooden grip with wire wrap. Blade is flexible and seems well tempered. There are no blade stamps or marks that I can find. Some small nicks in blade but of course this could mean something or nothing! Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 29th March 2017 at 07:42 PM.

4th April 2017, 07:53 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Jim, Thanks for having a shot at this. I suspect this is a 19thC continental court sword possibly Iberia or France. The attached images are tagged as French court swords although I couldn't verify the veracity of this opinion. My Regards, Norman. Hi Carlos, Thanks for the links. There are a quite a few similar so I guess we are on the right track. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

4th April 2017, 09:27 PM	#6
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	Another similar sword ... Attached Images

6th April 2017, 08:33 AM	#9
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	The pommel is familiar enough that I'll add this one I had bought as French. The grip is plastic. Cheers GC Attached Images

2nd April 2017, 04:48 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Hi Norman, Hard to find anything specific on this as it seems to be a 'Historismus' oriented court sword very much in Italianate style (the heads facing varied directions) and likely 19th century. Arms of these types were I believe accoutrements which were limited and pretty much isolated as far as production. One would have to identify the heads as to the symbolism or allegorical significance, and the Italian nature simply fashionable in these times. I had thought of somethin fraternal, but there would be markings or symbols in blade inscriptions. Interesting and attractive piece, and maybe somebody out there might have more insight.

2nd April 2017, 09:07 AM	#3
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	There are similar swords from Spain. In spanish webs are similar, in Google You could search " espada de ceñir Toledo " ordenar "espadin Toledo " Carlos

4th April 2017, 08:03 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Very nice sleuthing Norman!!! This one has been driving me nuts and as Carlos noted, the hilt style in very much in line with Spanish officers swords, but this classical noir theme is really a puzzle. I found a bronze Chinese sword (B.C.) which had a warrior or human face forward, with the Chinese type dragon heads on each side facing outward in the same configuration. It is clear this is a courtly sword of some kind, and in this sphere (Iberia, France and Italy) classical themes seem to have been employed allegorically quite often in material culture, extending into weaponry fashion. It would be great to find out what this arrangement means, and it is amazing you found these other examples!!!

4th April 2017, 10:24 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Carlos, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The first sword C1850 has more or less the same configuration re pommel and crossguard as my sword. I would now say with reasonable confidence that my sword is a Spanish officer's sword from the reign of Isabella II. The blade on mine seems more substantial than those illustrated and being of a reasonable length it may be a dress sword for cavalry rather than infantry. Many thanks for your efforts on my behalf. My Regards, Norman.

5th April 2017, 12:25 PM	#8
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	Thanks to you , thanks for post this beautiful sword ! best regards carlos