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#1 |
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Long, long time ago I started this fructuos thread, that perpetuated in the new Forum. It was about the LOHAR and what was his true function. Now if you digest this brainstorm we did here one can get close to how limitless human mind is.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002389.html Now, it so happend I made a friend three days ago, Mr. Mohammed, he is a Pashtun Afghani that has been trading art, antiques and fine rugs for over three decades. He has a museum size gallery named "Arjang Asian Rugs & Arts" in La Jolla (San Diego area), California now. And I asked him to tell me what in the world the Lohars are used for. First of all I had to draw and pull pictures of them and as soon as I did he smiled large and I said: I know these things very well, we dont make them anymore in Afghanistan too much, unless its the tourist market in Kaboul. They are not "lohar" or at least we dont name them that way, we call them "kan' shekan" or "koolang". And they are not sickles or weapons, my friend. THEY ARE ICE AND CANDY PICKS ! You know we sell ice in the markets and its brought in huge blocks that need to be broken or scrapped and also sugar candy especially back in the days same thing came in blocks and if you bought lets say half a kilo the merchant need to chop it off the block! And it also made a good decoration in the house or a kid toy. ...I rest my case, my heart is at peace because so far I believe Mr. Mohammed. I smile now thinking you can find this "lohar" in books like Cameron Stone's famous refference "Glossary of Arms and Armour", "Islamic Weapons, Maghrib to Moghul" by Tirri and many others... Sometimes how fine the line between domestic implement and weaponry is inside the bibliographical records resides in our enthusiasm! Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 31st October 2006 at 07:41 PM. |
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#2 |
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Thank you very much and welcome back!
It might be! but don't forget that border between weapons and utilitary tools is often very thin. One will use something as flail on his farm while his neighbour will add some brass inlay or few nails making nice or dangerous looking weapon. I didn't follow your thread on 'Lohar' nor I met with such weapons by myself, so I can't tell anything about them, it's just my overall thought about weapons and their origins or later modifications. Regards! |
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#3 |
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Interesting post Radu....throughout history agricultural tools have been used as weapons. The link you posted to the previous thread mentions the Japanese Kama, a weapon which started life as an Agricultural implement and utilised as a weapon, when, if historians are correct, the carrying of legitimate weapons by peasants was banned.
I also noticed in that thread a picture and reference to a Lohar looking 'weapon' attributed to a tribal source (Bannochie)...surely they did not rely on them to break up ice blocks or sugar candy.....adopted as a weapon? or originally designed as a weapon ? Perhaps they evolved independently? |
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#4 |
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Radu:
Why do you think people went to the trouble of making folding versions of these ice picks? Ian. |
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#5 | |
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#6 | |
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#7 | |
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![]() Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 31st October 2006 at 07:33 PM. |
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#8 |
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Hello Radu and all,
Not to throw a wrench into what is kown about the lohar and to confuse matters further, but here is a short clip - from the movie Exils - that shows an Algerian percussion instrument (likely Kabyle) that uses a drum-stick very similar to the lohar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzmbTCQxHMw it is used in conjunction with a regular drum-stick. I'm sorry but the view of the instrument in the clip is the only one in the movie...I've tried researching this instrument further, but haven't fount anything yet. I hope this isn't entirely irrelevant. Best regards, Emanuel |
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#9 | |
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No pun intended, but I say you are drawing in a wee bit of confusion here. Here is what you should look for, its a wooden drum stick no relation to the matter IMHO. Common throughout North Africa and not only, made of wood or bone. http://www.motherlandmusic.com/sticks&beaters.htm You dont poke a drum with a sharp point metal ice pick. ![]() |
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#10 |
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Hi Radu,
Fair enough, just the shape of the drumstick really struck me when I saw it and brought the lohar to my mind. Ah, thanks for the link...and I didn't realize it was wooden...some lohar I held had a very blunt point, almost fully rounded. The edge underneath was practically nonexistent on one example. All the best, Emanuel |
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#11 |
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Are used by many tribes. Some look like an 'L', and some look like a check mark. The normal African talking drum is played with that sort of stick.
Don't use a 'lohar' for that! |
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#12 |
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Don't take a lohar to a gun fight. Nor a knife fight. Nor a sword fight -- unless they are serving iced sugar drinks. Only then will you and your lohar be appreciated.
![]() Sugar or ice? Why not? Never could understand how they were used anyhow. ![]() But really, Radhu, could it be that you or your friend are joking? I have one with silver koftgari. Pretty fancy -- and a bit too sharp for a kids toy. ![]() The blade does not look like it would take an awful lot of icepicking. pretty heavy but tapering to a rather thin point. I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall? Last edited by Bill Marsh; 1st November 2006 at 02:02 AM. |
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#13 |
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THE LOHAR I HAVE HANDLED WOULD MAKE A BETTER WEAPON THAN AN ICE PICK OR ICE SHAVER. THE COMMON ICE PICK IS MUCH EASIER TO CARRY AND QUITE CAPABLE OF EASILY SEPARATEING A 500 POUND BLOCK OF ICE INTO SMALLER CHUNKS. I HAD TWO RELATIVES WHO RAN LARGE ICE HOUSES BACK EAST AND SAW HOW FAST THE ICE MEN COULD MAKE THE PROPER SIZE AND WEIGHT OF ICE BLOCK TO FILL THE ORDER. THE ICE SHAVERS I HAVE SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD USUALLY WORK ON THE PRINCIPAL OF A WOOD PLANE BUT ARE DESIGNED FOR ICE INSTEAD. IF THE LOHAR IS THE AFAGHAN VERSION OF THE COMMON ICE PICK I WONDER WHAT THE ICE TONGS THEY USE TO CARRY LARGE BLOCKS OF ICE LOOK LIKE THEY MUST BE VERY IMPRESSIVE.
![]() I WONDER IF SOMEONE IS HAVING THEIR LEG PULLED OR IF THAT TRULY IS THEIR USE IN AFGANISTAN? IN ANY CASE I WOULD MUCH PREFER A REGULAR ICE PICK AND ICE SHAVER TO TRYING TO DO IT WITH A LOHAR. ![]() THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS ON THIS POST I DO NOT INTEND TO ATTACK ANYONE. |
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#14 |
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The question I have in regards to the ice pick theory is how long have big blocks of ice been available in markets on a large enough scale that required a specialized tool such as the Lohar.(not to be confused with The Google) Maybe as long as refrigeration has been around? Are there any provenanced examples of Lohar dating back to 19th century? Would such an early example lend credence to the lohar having some prior function that later evolved into an ice pick when it had become obsolete in its original design?
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#15 |
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Yeah,
What VANDOO SAID, and RSWORD also! Radu? |
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#16 |
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Here are my 0.02 euros: I have touched few lohars, I owned one for long time. The Tajiks call it Dos. As I learned there it was a weapon. Now days they make new fancy ones for “tourist” market. Of course the only “tourists” in Afghanistan are soldiers of ISAF and some civilian NGOs. The ones with only one side decorated are modern.
On the other hand, Radu’s info (hi Radu, we missed you ![]() |
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#17 |
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Sounds about right to me. I have a Somali sugar axe well an adze really. An impressive thing untill you find out it is a piece of kitchen ware. Quite decorative I will show it when I find it.
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#18 | |
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#19 | |
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#20 |
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[QUOTE=VANDOO]THE LOHAR I HAVE HANDLED WOULD MAKE A BETTER WEAPON THAN AN ICE PICK OR ICE SHAVER. THE COMMON ICE PICK IS MUCH EASIER TO CARRY AND QUITE CAPABLE OF EASILY SEPARATEING A 500 POUND BLOCK OF ICE INTO SMALLER CHUNKS. I HAD TWO RELATIVES WHO RAN LARGE ICE HOUSES BACK EAST AND SAW HOW FAST THE ICE MEN COULD MAKE THE PROPER SIZE AND WEIGHT OF ICE BLOCK TO FILL THE ORDER. THE ICE SHAVERS I HAVE SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD USUALLY WORK ON THE PRINCIPAL OF A WOOD PLANE BUT ARE DESIGNED FOR ICE INSTEAD. IF THE LOHAR IS THE AFAGHAN VERSION OF THE COMMON ICE PICK I WONDER WHAT THE ICE TONGS THEY USE TO CARRY LARGE BLOCKS OF ICE LOOK LIKE THEY MUST BE VERY IMPRESSIVE.
![]() I WONDER IF SOMEONE IS HAVING THEIR LEG PULLED OR IF THAT TRULY IS THEIR USE IN AFGANISTAN? IN ANY CASE I WOULD MUCH PREFER A REGULAR ICE PICK AND ICE SHAVER TO TRYING TO DO IT WITH A LOHAR. ![]() THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS ON THIS POST I DO NOT INTEND TO ATTACK ANYONE.[/QUOTE] Pace your enthusiasm , capitalised letters ![]() ![]() Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 1st November 2006 at 07:35 PM. |
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#21 |
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Google images. Sugar hammers. The first three examples, priceless
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#22 | |
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#23 |
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I do not think there was much call for ice in your martini
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#24 |
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I stumbled across two images of Aghani people harvesting ice at the glacier's lip, Vandoo, my friend, this one is for you
![]() http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters1.jpg http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters2.jpg |
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#25 |
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.....I think that Leon Trotsky would vouch for the lethal qualities of an everyday ice pick.... so the injury potential of the Lohar IMHO would be greater?
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#26 | |
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#27 | |
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Don't see any Lohars in your links. Still seems like someone is joking here. Do you have any pictures, drawings, engravings, etc., of Lohars being used as ice picks? Enquiring minds want to know! |
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#28 |
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THERE ARE NO LOHAR IN EVIDENCE IN THE PICTURES BUT THE ICE BEING HARVESTED LOOKS MORE LIKE COMPACTED SNOW. A TRADITIONAL ICE PICK RELIES ON THE FRACTURE PLANES IN ICE AND IN THE HANDS OF SOMEONE USED TO USING THEM CAN HANDLE ANY SIZE OF ICE OUTCROPING OR LAKE SURFACE ICE(THE ICE WOULD ALREADY HAVE TO BE REMOVED FROM A LAKE IF IT IS VERY THICK AS A ICE PICK CAN'T DO THAT JOB).
THE LOHAR COULD WORK BETTER FOR CUTTING AND SHAPEING COMPRESSED SNOW AS SNOW WILL NOT FRACTURE SO IN THAT CASE IT WOULD WORK BETTER THAN AN ICE PICK. LOHAR WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR ICE OR SNOW CLIMBING THOUGH AS THEY HAVE A SHARP EDGE ON THE BOTTOM WHICH WOULD SERVE AS A POOR CLIMBING ANCHOR. THE EDGE WOULD AID IN CUTTING THRU SNOW BY IMBEDDING THE BLADE FULLY AND THEN PULLING IT BACK PERHAPS GOING BACKWARDS TO MAKE A LONG SLICE IF THE SNOW WAS NOT TOO HARD. PERHAPS IT IS ONLY A TOOL OR PERHAPS NOT BUT IT COULD BE USED EFFECTIVELY AS A WEAPON ALSO. ![]() ![]() MY USE OF ALL CAPITALS DOSEN'T DENOTE EXCITEMENT OR PASSION JUST POOR EYESIGHT ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO COMPUTER SCREENS ![]() |
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#29 |
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Not quite a Lohar......but an interesting similar weapon from Africa. Seems 'business like' so I don't think it is ceremonial.....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=011 |
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#30 |
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I've been watching this thread with great interest, and Radu, as always comes up with some fascinating perspective on these intriguing weapons and thier modern use. I personally have little doubt that they were indeed once very lethal weapons, probably used in the raiding of camps that it seems was favored as nocturnal activity in Afghan regions. Thier relatively diminutive size seems to run along with so many daggers and weapons that were meant for easy concealment ( obviously the converse applies to the huge khyber knives etc.).
As for their modern use as ice picks.....not surprising at all to see a weapon with strong traditional presence finding a new , more practical use aside from its former one. It seems I've seen so many daggers and knives used as letter openers, remaining certain that these weapons were not originally designed to open letters! ![]() ![]() Best regards, Jim |
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