Gustav's Discovery

[A. G. Maisey]

I have opened this thread in the hope that we may be able to concentrate on these very interesting images that Gustav provided in this previous thread:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=22932&page=1

In the foundation thread for this new thread we had a long circular discussion that seemed to me a bit counter-productive, even though I was a part of it, by opening this new thread my hope is that we can move forward without the baggage of previous discussion..

Gustav has identified an element of the greneng that is found in a small number of old Javanese and possibly Balinese keris. He tells us that this element seems to have virtually disappeared in keris made after about 1700. Initially he thought that this element did not appear in Balinese keris, but after further searching he discovered an element in a Balinese keris, that is very probably from the 1800's, that he believes is the same form as the element found in the older pre-1700 kerises.

I can verify that this element is one that I have not seen in any recent keris.I cannot do much more than that, because until Gustav directed his focus to this element and produced his images I regarded this unusual element of the greneng as just another greneng variation, of which we have an uncountable number.

But this variation is different. At least 5 of Gustav's 6 examples do show a related and clearly intentional form. The makers who put this element into the greneng did so for a reason. In my experience, when a motif is used in the same way, by a number of people, over an extended period, this is done for a reason. In the context of the keris in Jawa that reason is most likely to be because the motif has the nature of a symbol.

But what does that symbol mean?

The symbolism of some of the other elements of keris design is already clear, but this newly revealed symbol has been overlooked until now, probably because it is so seldom seen.

Symbolism in the Javanese keris can probably be divided into several categories;- indigenous Javanese, Hindu Javanese, Buddhist Javanese, Islamic Javanese.

Here below are six images of keris with the variant element indicated.

It might be a useful and interesting exercise if each of us searched relevant data bases, both online and traditional hard copy, and attempted to align the indicated greneng element with an appropriate form from one of the categories I have given above. That could be the start. If we are successful in finding something from the given categories that does align with the variant greneng element we then have the job of interpreting the intent in placing this variant element into the greneng.

This is not back-breaking research work, it does not need the ability to read foreign languages, it does not require either high intelligence or a master's degree in anthropology. All that is necessary is patience and the ability to match forms.

Have fun.

[kai]

Thanks, Alan!

At least 5 of Gustav's 6 examples do show a related and clearly intentional form.

Please specify which one you hesitate to place into this grouping and why! I assume #4 because the 3 elements exhibit some variation/inconsistencies (possibly to be explained by wear since the garap looks like quality craftsmanship?). It's certainly interesting that the same "rhythm" has survived into considerably later periods.

Gustav, can you add any additional info on this piece? (The TM does not reveal any details/provenance...)

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Kai, #4.

I have disregarded the enhancement in the nunut position, I'm only looking at the single peak between the ron dha, ri pandan & kanyut, like this, reading from left to right:- ron dha, unidentified, ri pandan, kanyut. The ri pandan forms a part of the ron dha, then we have an upright element, then there is another ri pandan, followed by the kanyut.If we read this as a three part element it means we are taking from the ron dha, maybe this is OK, there is a lot of dualism in Jawa/Bali symbolism, maybe its OK to double up on usage, also, maybe not, but in any case that single upright in the middle is probably intended to be understood in the sense of Siwa.

Bali is "the Land of Three", as Murni and Copeland put it "everything comes in threes in Bali", the use of ornamentation, symbolism, motifs as three part elements is extremely common. If we link that to the fact that this is a much younger blade than Gustav's other examples, I think that it is stretching things a bit to include this late Bali motif with these others from an earlier time. Maybe it belongs, maybe not, but right now I intend to put it in the pending tray. It might be able to be read as a three part element, but maybe not, and if not, I would assume that it is Siwa symbolism.

Since I opened this thread I've been browsing books, as I write, my feeling is that we might be looking at either one of two things:- Siwa symbolism, or an obscure way of writing om. I emphasise "feeling", no solid evidence, only shape similarities in a lot of different places.

[rasdan]

Hi everybody,

I am actually quite busy right now, but the attraction is too strong for me not to participate, so just a quick one. I am unsure if this makes sense or not. This is just a quick observation, so most likely it wont stand to close scrutiny.

I see the greneng on the kerises presented here in a slightly different way. To start with, IMHO earlier greneng started with a notched ri pandan. This notch was then eroded away and later pandai keris copied the eroded version creating a Dha with a “bump” version Ri Pandan. And to the extreme version, the Dha no longer have a Ri Pandan and it looks like the letter C.

Usually, Dha is placed after a thingil and is cut slightly lower than the thingil. What we are seeing on the keris posted here are probably the Dha with “bump” Ri pandan but were cut at the same level of the thingil and this makes it looks like it is an extra and wide thingil. This is probably a style used by the north coast keris makers. (Figure 1, 2 & 3)

There’s another variant that were normally on much later Javanese keris is that an extra dha were cut on top of the thingil. (Figure 3.1) And on much later Balinese keris the dha is at normal position and the “NorthCoast” higher Dha position gets modified into another thingil (Figure 5) or into another element (Figure 4) making it three elements.

I am unsure if keris in Figure 6 has an notched Dha in the middle or a gap. If it is a notched dha, then what I had said above is probably wrong assuming that the type of Dha used on a keris should be consistently shaped and unless keris in Figure 6 a slightly later Balinese keris.

Sorry if what I write doesn’t make sense.

p/s: Sorry, I have uploaded figures according to the sequence, but somehow it comes out in random order.

[rasdan]

By the way, probably this formation in front of the gandik is also a dha? If this is so, then we might have an explanation on the purpose of the lambe gajah.

[kai]

By the way, probably this formation in front of the gandik is also a dha? If this is so, then we might have an explanation on the purpose of the lambe gajah.

Interesting thought, Rasdan. However, its contours are usually different from the real ron dha. Thus, I don't think it is the intended meaning.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Sorry, I have uploaded figures according to the sequence, but somehow it comes out in random order.

After selecting the first pic, hit upload. Then the next, etc.

If uploaded separately, pics stay in sequence.

Regards,
Kai

[drdavid]

Dear experts
for those of us with less knowledge it would help greatly when you introduce a less common keris term if you can identify on a picture that element or at least give a brief description. For example in this discussion ri pandan is a new term to me and it is not on the illustration http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html that I use most frequently
thanks
Dr D

[A. G. Maisey]

Rasdan, I like your ideas. I'm sorry, but I need to think through the propositions you have put forward, this will take me a few days, so I cannot express any opinion right now. I'll get back to this in a few days.

David, here is an image that gives a bit more detail on the greneng. If you look at an assortment of other charts of the greneng, or of the full keris for that matter, you will probably see some terms used that differ, or are applied to different elements. This sort of confusion is not really all that uncommon in Javanese related contexts. My feeling on the matter is that Javanese language is essentially intended for personal communication, speech, face to face, when the language is used in a written form the ideas and expression seem not to be so tightly held together as in, say, English. We need to adjust.

The words "gunun" & "buntu mimi" have been clipped in reproduction, they should be :- "gunungan" & "buntut mimi".

This image is a crop from the drawing in the front of the Surakarta dhapur pakem.

EDIT, SECOND IMAGE

second image taken from KJ --- Haryoguritno.
Notice some variation?
If we look at a wide selection of these charts we will find a number of differences.
Try to be tolerant, this is the way Jawa works:- you think you understand something?
Forget it, things move and change all the time.Nothing is carved in stone except the ancient monumental works.

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by drdavid

For example in this discussion ri pandan is a new term to me and it is not on the illustration http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html that I use most frequently
thanks
Dr D

Sorry DrD, I am no expert, but ri pandan is the notch in the middle of the ron dha. In some cases, this notch becomes a bump. I have marked the ri pandan on Alm. Empu Suparman's diagram from Alan below.

Originally Posted by kai

However, its contours are usually different from the real ron dha

Hi Kai, in my eyes, I think this Dha actually resembles Pajajaran Ron Dha. The image below.

Originally Posted by kai

After selecting the first pic, hit upload. Then the next, etc.

Thanks Kai, I'll try that next time.

[drdavid]

Alan, Rasdan
thanks for your input, however you don't seem to agree which bit is the ri pandan
cheers
DrD

[rasdan]

Hi DrD, Alan,

It seems that I made a mistake here. I was using the diagram from Keris Jawa book below. Probably the label in that book was switched between the thingil and Ri pandan. I will address the notch/bump in the middle of the dha as thingil from now on. Sorry for the mistake.

I'll get back to this in a few days.

Ok Alan.

Edit:
Just saw Alan had attached the same image after I posted this, but I think I'll just leave the image here for reference of my post.

[rasdan]

Just to add a bit. If we look closely, at the keris diagram in Keris Jawa book, we can see a small Dha formation on top of the thingil (term used in that book) as I mentioned in my first post above.

This reminds me of the greneng for a Tilam Sari keris which probably includes a dha formation on the thingil followed with a wide and long dha. Image below.

[A. G. Maisey]

We crossed posts David.

My understanding is in accordance with what I was taught by Empu Suparman and agreed by Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, and understood by several of the Anak-Anak ASKI, it is also in agreement with descriptions of keris elements given in individual descriptions in the Surakarta Pakem.


My understanding is that the ri pandan is the substantial hooked part of the rondha, this is also the ri pandan when it appears as a single isolated element. The thingil is the small raised peak that is seen in the centre of the rondha.

The meaning of 'ri pandan' is "pandan thorn", the pandan is a plant that has thorns on the leaves of some varieties, those thorns frequently have a small hook. There are many varieties of pandan, the one that is used as a flavouring in food does not normally have hooks.

The meaning of "thingil" is "a small thing that stands above its surroundings". Actually, "thingil" is normally used in the form "thingil-thingil".

I believe my understanding is correct, as I have sometimes said:- in respect of keris books, especially Javanese keris books, people who write books are very good at writing books -----

[drdavid]

Alan, thank you for the clarification
This leads me to ask if I should consider the ron dha as containing the ri pandan and what ever name we give to the hook at the other end or just the curving edges (as in the script used to write aum) or possibly just the space with the thingil in the middle. Or all of the above.
cheers
DrDavid

[Jean]

Originally Posted by drdavid

Alan, thank you for the clarification
This leads me to ask if I should consider the ron dha as containing the ri pandan and what ever name we give to the hook at the other end or just the curving edges (as in the script used to write aum) or possibly just the space with the thingil in the middle. Or all of the above.
cheers
DrDavid

Good question David, what a confusion! And I would add:
. What is the difference between the ron dha nunut and ron dha besides their different location? (wadidang and ganja).
. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?
. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean:-
What is the difference between the ron dha nunut and ron dha besides their different location? (wadidang and ganja).

nunut means to follow along, the ron dha in the wadidang"follows along" with the other ron dha in the gonjo, so this wadidang ron dha is the ron dha nunut


. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?

according to what I have been taught this is a ri pandan, and it forms part of the ron dha


. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.

sorry Jean, not according to the Surakarta Pakem, here it is called a ri pandan

I'm in the process right now of putting up some posts that I do not expect will lessen this confusion, but will at least help you to understand what you are facing when you try to understand the keris from a Javanese perspective.

[A. G. Maisey]

Here are some images that might help to demonstrate the bog that we try to wade through when we begin to use Javanese and Indonesian books as reliable sources of information.
The important thing to remember is this:- keris knowledge is in fact knowledge of keris belief.

The "facts" of anything are only facts for the people who accept any particular source of knowledge, be it a text, or a person, as a reliable source.

There is no "standard".

Books and other printed or written sources can be useful to somebody who already has a foundation gained from personal, face to face instruction by an acknowledged authority, but without this foundation it becomes more than a little bit difficult to know if something can be accepted or not, and if it is accepted, that acceptance depends upon the belief in the person who provided the foundation.

With things Javanese and Indonesian, it is probably not the wisest position to take to accept anything as the ultimate truth.


I've posted a lot of images here, the numbers indicate the sources:-

1-- Koesni, 'Pakem Pengetahuan Tentang Keris'
2-- Ki Darmosoegito, 'Bab Dhuwung'
3-- Rt. Waluyodipuro, 'Dhuwung'
4-- S.Lumintu, 'Ilmu Keris'
5-- B. Harsrinuksmo, 'Ensiklopedi Keris'
6-- as for 5
7--as for 5
8-- B. Harsrinuksmo, 'Dapur Keris'
9-- as for 8
10-- as for 8
11-- as for 8


My personal position is that my "keris knowledge" in the sense of present day Central Javanese "knowledge" is based upon what I have personally gained from the people I know and have known in Central Jawa. I do not take much notice of what is printed in books about keris. I have seen very well known and respected authors come to my own teachers seeking information, I have seen and heard what they were given, I have heard my teachers' remarks when they left, I have seen what these respected authors did to the information they were given.

I am not recommending that any of the information in the accompanying images be regarded as "correct", whatever that may mean, my purpose in providing these images is try to provide some sort of understanding of exactly what Javanese "knowledge" of keris is like.

The text is in Javanese and Indonesian, if you can't work out what it means, ask me. I don't feel inclined to translate everything on all pages.

What I've posted is just a sample. I've got a lot, I mean a real lot of books, manuscripts, articles & etc & etc & etc about this sort of stuff, several big bookcases, more than one shoulder high filing cabinet. The more you read the more confused and contradictory it becomes.

[A. G. Maisey]

In respect of the ri pandan and the thingil.

Before you can understand what anybody is saying, you need to understand the language they are using.

Here the language is Javanese.

Ri pandan means "pandan thorn", some pandan plants have thorns along the sides of the leaves, those thorns are hooked, so if you are told that something is like a pandan thorn, you need to look for a hooked thorn.

In the context of a keris, that hooked thorn can either stand alone, or it can be a part of the ron dha, but wherever it is, it is thorn-like and it is hooked.

"Thingil" means "something small that stands above its surroundings".

In the context of the keris, this can be something that is an isolated element, or it can be the small central spike in the cup of the ron dha. Both uses are correct, because in both cases we are talking about something small that projects above the surroundings.

Once you have even a basic understanding of Javanese it is really not so difficult to understand what is being said insofar as keris terminology is concerned.

I think I might have answered your query David?

[kai]

Hello Alan,

. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?

according to what I have been taught this is a ri pandan, and it forms part of the ron dha

It also was my understanding that the uppermost hook of the ron dha nunut is called ri pandan and apparently forms an integral part. However, in strict sense it does not "participate" in building the ron dha nunut while the second ri pandan forms the right hand side of ron dha nunut (as well as in the ron dha following on the gonjo).

At least from a pattern recognition approach it does make sense to call the right hand element of the ron dha motif ri pandan.

Thingil certainly suits the middle "thorn" of the ron dha motif.

Thus, the question remains what do we call the left hand structure of the ron dha motif? With its more erect and often slender structure without much curvature and those notches on its top, it seems to deserve a name of its own! Early versions seem to exhibit a bit more curvature but it seems like a stretch to me to also call this element ri pandan, too...

. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.

sorry Jean, not according to the Surakarta Pakem, here it is called a ri pandan

I also just stumbled over this paradox and am glad there is another approach. While this isolated element certainly protrudes from the general outline of the blade/gonjo, it certainly has the shape of a ri pandan!

I'm in the process right now of putting up some posts that I do not expect will lessen this confusion, but will at least help you to understand what you are facing when you try to understand the keris from a Javanese perspective.

Great, I'm looking forward to more insights!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Here's a good little extra one for you, this is also from Waluyodipuro, 'Dhuwung'. This is an old text published 1959.

Compare with previous.

tengil --- this means 'a bulge or a swelling', I cannot remember hearing it used as a keris term, except to describe an obvious bulge, usually one that looks a bit out of place, but here it seems as if Waluyodipuro knew it as a keris term

lanjarngirim --- I do not know if this is a word or a description, I don't know it as a keris term, but I understand the sense in Javanese as "something extra that has been sent", in Indonesian, it might be "something long and tapering that has been sent". Frankly, to me, it just doesn't make sense. I just ran it past two native speakers of Javanese,both from Solo, both asked me to put it in a sentence, out of context, even as a descriptor, they had no idea what it meant.

Fun, isn't it?

EDIT

OK, it took a bit of effort, but I found some handwritten Javanese notes that translate as:-

"The thingil or lanjarngirim is placed below the eri-pandan'

So Waluyodipuro understood 'lanjarngirim' as an alternate name for 'thingil', and 'tengil' is simply dialect for 'thingil'.

Really great fun working with Javanese.

Wonderland language.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, there might well be a distinct name for the element that begins a ron dha, reading from the left, but I do not know it, and in my experience this break down of terminology is almost never used , mostly we just refer to the ron dha as an integral unit.

Frankly I see all this name business as total, absolute useless info, its not knowledge, it doesn't demonstrate one single thing except that some person, or group of people have stuck a name on something.

I did not put in a couple of hours finding, preparing and posting those images to provide information in respect of names, I did it because I wanted people to see how bl**dy pointless this stupid name game is.

The names used for various things, in this case keris elements, or really, composition of a keris element in this case, vary from place to place, time to time, person to person, group to group. The same people at different times will use the same word to refer to different features. The whole exercise of trying to get an encyclopedic knowledge of ever changing names is pointless.

If we speak Javanese and use these words face to face as descriptors of something, the names can make sense, but used as solid, written in stone names that are universally understandable in text forever, the whole thing is just a waste of time. Forget the names, concentrate on the meaning of the symbol, the names mean nothing, they are all euphemisms given at the lowest level of knowledge in any case.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kai, there might well be a distinct name for the element that begins a ron dha, reading from the left, but I do not know it, and in my experience this break down of terminology is almost never used , mostly we just refer to the ron dha as an integral unit.

Frankly I see all this name business as total, absolute useless info, its not knowledge, it doesn't demonstrate one single thing except that some person, or group of people have stuck a name on something.

I did not put in a couple of hours finding, preparing and posting those images to provide information in respect of names, I did it because I wanted people to see how bl**dy pointless this stupid name game is.

The names used for various things, in this case keris elements, or really, composition of a keris element in this case, vary from place to place, time to time, person to person, group to group. The same people at different times will use the same word to refer to different features. The whole exercise of trying to get an encyclopedic knowledge of ever changing names is pointless.

If we speak Javanese and use these words face to face as descriptors of something, the names can make sense, but used as solid, written in stone names that are universally understandable in text forever, the whole thing is just a waste of time. Forget the names, concentrate on the meaning of the symbol, the names mean nothing, they are all euphemisms given at the lowest level of knowledge in any case.

Thank you Alan and I agree with your conclusion!

[drdavid]

Thanks Alan
I certainly understand your comments on the 'name game'. The reason I asked what actually composes the ron dha was that if it were the space as opposed to the surrounds, that would conceptually match some of the meanings given to OM (or AUM), such as 'the beginning of everything'
cheers
DrDavid

[rasdan]

I have drawn this diagram to help with our discussion in this thread, but I have left out the gunungan and buntut mimi part.

I think originally the top and bottom ri pandan have the same shape (hence the similar name) - hooked thorn; with the top one facing up, the bottom one facing down. In time, the bottom one gets modified with a notch on top of it.

Please correct me if there are any mistakes/disagreements. I could miss some things discussed above as I browsed through it rather quickly.

[Gustav]

Very interesting.

Just an observating remark - Rasdan, you got something wrong regarding the Keris 5.

Keris 5 isn't the "latest version for Balinese Keris". It is in fact quite early.

Regarding the Balinese cutting unintentional "North Coast Dha's" besides a normal one on it, I will leave it to Balinese.

Also Keris 6 isn't "a slightly later Balinese keris".

But that's not so important.

[rasdan]

Thanks Gustav. Yes keris 6 is probably not Balinese, I said "unless keris in Figure 6 a slightly later Balinese keris". I think I've seen keris 6 somewhere in Kris Disk, so it may be from 1600s-1700, but I think I haven't seen keris 5 before. Can you please provide us with the estimated age of keris 5? Any possibility that keris 5 is not Balinese but dressed in Balinese dress?

Yeah, what I put up is just my quick observation I didn't align it with the estimated age (which will probably show that I am wrong) as I am quite occupied right now.

The reason I think the north coast people used the "bump Dha" is because of the influence of the shallow and wide Pajajaran type dha shown in the diagram in post #10 above.

BTW, if the gap in keris 6 is actually a Dha, then we can probably conclude that the "north coast" dha theory to rest. Unless we can justify having two types of dha on a set of greneng- which i think is unlikely.

[Gustav]

Rasdan, I see, now I got some questions from you.

Before making questions, I would suggest you to do some home work. I have done mine, and that quite meticulously - please do yours.

Actually instead of "I didn't align it with the estimated age" as you described it now, you simply declared the Keris 5 as "much later Balinese Keris", in picture "latest version for Balinese Keris", to fit in your theory. That is a not so fine difference.

Regarding the whole "Bump Dha" thing, I think, at first we must be able to differentiate between external and internal details, which should be not so complicated, because on all Kerisses in question, as distinguished from most Nem-Neman Keris, the Greneng itself is external.

Ron Dha is an indentation, your "Bump Dha" on these Kerisses is an protrusion. You are searching for Ron Dha in wrong place.

[Gustav]

For people lowing questions, finally a couple from me:

If you look at Kembang Kacang on Keris 2, 4 and 6, and compare it proportionally to its Gandhik, what do you see?

Do we associate such proportion on Keris with full Ricikan with North Coast Java (except for Keris 4. Or perhaps it's also a NCJ dressed as Balinese?)?

Or do we associate it perhaps with an other region?

Is the proportion of KK compared to Gandhik (and Greneg/Jenggot) the only conspicuous thing we notice on Keris 4, not associated with common 19th cent. Bali Keris?

Where have we seen something similar?

[A. G. Maisey]

Rasdan, I do appreciate the thought you have put into your posts, and you have raised a couple of interesting points.I'm still thinking about what you have put up, and I'll get back to what you propose later.

Gustav has not given full length images of the keris he has posted, and speaking for myself, if these truly did come into Europe several hundred years ago, I would not know if they were old or new from a photo. In fact, even in the hand I probably could not guess age.

Again, speaking only of the keris, that is the blade, for early keris, keris from the period immediately following the Mojo era, that narrow little strip of water between Jawa and Bali meant nothing in terms of contact:- water was/is a highway, not a barrier. Other things were barriers, but not the water.

Sure, we can look at the dress and we can say the handle or the scabbard demonstrates style that is attributable to a particular area, but we cannot do that with early blades, it is not until Islamic influence got a good strong foothold in Jawa that blade style of Javanese and Balinese keris began to vary.

So lets not try to categorise any of these very small parts of keris, that have no provenance, into "Jawa" or "Bali" or anywhere else. Even if they did have provenance, any provenance is always open to question in the final analysis, and trying to draw too many conclusions from images of keris is perhaps the ultimate folly:- it simply cannot be done, in fact most of the people I learnt from in Solo would not give more than a cursory comment to an image of a keris, they needed it in their hand to form any supportable opinion, and to a large degree, I'm pretty much the same.

All this is a diversion from focus on this newly revealed feature that Gustav has given us.

Might it be possible to return our attention to the difficult matter of identification of this design element?