WHAT DO YOU WANT TO KNOW? PROOF/CONTROL MARKS

kahnjar1 · 1st November 2008, 05:58 AM

I HAVE BEEN APPROACHED BY JIM TO START A THREAD ABOUT PROOF/CONTROL MARKS FOUND ON GUNS AND OTHER WEAPONS. I HAVE A REASONABLY EXTENSIVE LIBRARY, AND WOULD BE HAPPY TO TRY TO IDENTIFY ANY MARKS WHICH MEMBERS HAVE FOUND ON OLD WEAPONS. PLEASE POST YOUR REQUESTS ON THE FORUM AND I WILL TRY TO PROVIDE ANSWERS IF I CAN. BE PATIENT AS RESEARCH CAN TAKE TIME!
MEANWHILE TO GET THE BALL ROLLING I HAVE POSTED HERE THE CITY CONTROL MARKS FROM SUHL AND ALSO EARLY SWEDISH MARKS.
INFORMATION SOURCE "ONE HUNDRED GREAT GUNS" BY MERRILL LINDSAY.

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2008, 12:36 AM

Stu , thank you so much for getting this thread started, and for beginning with such a unique subject. In discussing firearms, it seems the focus is usually on British, then French, followed by Spanish then occasionally Portuguese, at least in my perception as an observer. Obviously German guns come in as well, but seldom those from Sweden and North Europe it seems.
I'm sure this order will be challenged, but basically what I am saying is that Swedish guns dont seem to turn up too often.

I very much look forward to this thread developing, and as I have mentioned before, it is great to see responses on our new forum with its scope including and encouraging antique firearms discussion. I hope this thread will present a standing resource for those researching these firearms to find information on the markings which hold valuable clues and detail.

It is interesting to find that Sweden had such an important firearms industry with Suhl, and its comparison to Solingen for sword blades. If I understand correctly, the sword blades used in Sweden were typically Solingen made.

I am hoping someone out there might have a Suhl made weapon to post..it would be great seeing actual examples as we discuss these markings.

All the best,
Jim

kahnjar1 · 4th November 2008, 03:53 AM

Thanks Jim for the comments. Just to make things more interesting here are a few more obscure marks from the same source as previous.
I also would be very interested in seeing an actual weapon with ANY of these marks posted here.
Have fun Guys.

celtan · 6th November 2008, 01:35 AM

Hi Stu,
What do you know about this one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I HAVE BEEN APPROACHED BY JIM TO START A THREAD ABOUT PROOF/CONTROL MARKS FOUND ON GUNS AND OTHER WEAPONS. I HAVE A REASONABLY EXTENSIVE LIBRARY, AND WOULD BE HAPPY TO TRY TO IDENTIFY ANY MARKS WHICH MEMBERS HAVE FOUND ON OLD WEAPONS. PLEASE POST YOUR REQUESTS ON THE FORUM AND I WILL TRY TO PROVIDE ANSWERS IF I CAN. BE PATIENT AS RESEARCH CAN TAKE TIME!
MEANWHILE TO GET THE BALL ROLLING I HAVE POSTED HERE THE CITY CONTROL MARKS FROM SUHL AND ALSO EARLY SWEDISH MARKS.
INFORMATION SOURCE "ONE HUNDRED GREAT GUNS" BY MERRILL LINDSAY.

kahnjar1 · 6th November 2008, 03:25 AM

Looks to be a proof mark of a blade maker. Is this on a sword or a gun? A clearer pic would help showing the total stamping and surrounding decoration. Also any other information of the item.
Regards Stu

celtan · 6th November 2008, 09:45 AM

Ooops, my apologies. It's a 19th C. blade's ricasso mark. I'm having troubles taking good macro pictures of objects so small. I'll try to take another one.
Best

Manuel

kahnjar1 · 6th November 2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Ooops, my apologies. It's a 19th C. blade's ricasso mark. I'm having troubles taking good macro pictures of objects so small. I'll try to take another one.
Best

Manuel

Hi Manuel,
What does the WHOLE item look like as that COULD probably give some clue as to origins. What sort of sword is it??
Regards Stuart

celtan · 6th November 2008, 07:10 PM

Regular 19th sword, see another pis of hilt...

kahnjar1 · 7th November 2008, 03:01 AM

Sorry Manuel,
You will have to post clearer and more informative pics. Looks to be a cypher on the hilt but you don't show it. What does the rest of the blade look like? Are there any other markings or inscriptions which might give a clue as to origins?
In reply to your first question----what you show is a proof stamp on a sword. Other than that I can not tell anything further from what you have supplied.
Regards Stuart

celtan · 7th November 2008, 03:33 AM

Hi Stu, I still don't own the sword. I must return to the owner's and get more pics.

I was thinking that perhaps it meant Austrian Republic , but it couldn't be. In German it would be Republik Von Ostereich, not Of.

BTW, is there in the forum anyone that can read cyrillic?

Best

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Sorry Manuel,
You will have to post clearer and more informative pics. Looks to be a cypher on the hilt but you don't show it. What does the rest of the blade look like? Are there any other markings or inscriptions which might give a clue as to origins?
In reply to your first question----what you show is a proof stamp on a sword. Other than that I can not tell anything further from what you have supplied.
Regards Stuart

kahnjar1 · 7th November 2008, 05:05 AM

I do not have a great knowledge of sword proof, but I do know that the actual proof stamp itself does not necessarily give guide to the maker or origin . If you can get a pic of the cypher on the hilt, and any further cyphers on the blade, you SHOULD be able to at least arrive at country of origin and maybe even the cutler (maker).
Regards Stu

Bill M · 7th November 2008, 10:11 PM

How about my howdah pistol. Double barrel about .70 bore, percussion. Gun shop guy said, "Belgium - 1835 to 1855."

kahnjar1 · 8th November 2008, 03:55 AM

Hi Bill,
Marks are Belgian Proofs as follows:
The oval ELG in use from 1810 and was the SOLE MARK until 1853.
The EL intertwined was introduced 1852.
The numbers, 18 and 17.2 are the bore size in millimeters. Introduced 1810 and until 1894 graduated in 0.2mm graduations. After that date in 0.1mm graduations.
So from the above, your pistol is likely post 1853 and probably pre 1895.
Not quite what the guy in the shop said, but the marks tell the story.
Nice piece by the way!
Regards Stuart

celtan · 10th November 2008, 05:04 PM

Found other pics, seems to be Victorian British

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I do not have a great knowledge of sword proof, but I do know that the actual proof stamp itself does not necessarily give guide to the maker or origin . If you can get a pic of the cypher on the hilt, and any further cyphers on the blade, you SHOULD be able to at least arrive at country of origin and maybe even the cutler (maker).
Regards Stu

Bill M · 10th November 2008, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Bill,
Marks are Belgian Proofs as follows:
The oval ELG in use from 1810 and was the SOLE MARK until 1853.
The EL intertwined was introduced 1852.
The numbers, 18 and 17.2 are the bore size in millimeters. Introduced 1810 and until 1894 graduated in 0.2mm graduations. After that date in 0.1mm graduations.
So from the above, your pistol is likely post 1853 and probably pre 1895.
Not quite what the guy in the shop said, but the marks tell the story.
Nice piece by the way!
Regards Stuart

Wow Stuart! Thank you so much!

Great info! So could be anywhere between 1853 and 1894! I'll call it at 1853 1/2!

So one barrel is 18 mm and the other is 17.2 mm? Don't think that I would care to fire it with projectiles, but might try BP and wads.

I have heard conflicting comments about the strength of Damascus barrels. I know they were designed for BP, but some people say that over the years, cleaning fluids and residue get into the Damascus (mainly on the inside of the barrels) and can substantially weaken the walls.

Yet other people say this does not happen. Anyone have an opinion?

kahnjar1 · 10th November 2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Wow Stuart! Thank you so much!

Great info! So could be anywhere between 1853 and 1894! I'll call it at 1853 1/2!

So one barrel is 18 mm and the other is 17.2 mm? Don't think that I would care to fire it with projectiles, but might try BP and wads.

I have heard conflicting comments about the strength of Damascus barrels. I know they were designed for BP, but some people say that over the years, cleaning fluids and residue get into the Damascus (mainly on the inside of the barrels) and can substantially weaken the walls.

Yet other people say this does not happen. Anyone have an opinion?

Hi again Bill,
Yes, according to the marks, the barrels are of slightly different bore. Regarding interior of damascus barrels. The most usual corrosive agent was black powder residue. OK before fired but when fired the powder residue attracts moisture and creates a real mess if left over time.
If you wanted to fire the pistol, check the inside of the bores with a borelight, after having scrubbed it with a bronze brush. ALSO CHECK THAT IT IS NOT LOADED ALREADY. Some years ago a friend of mine shot his TV with an old muzzleloader which still had a charge in it! The way to check is to put the ramrod down the barrel and compare the depth with the outside. The rod SHOULD measure right back to the nipple. If it does not, then draw the old charge with some sort of long corkscrew if you don't have the proper tool.
Regards Stu

celtan · 10th November 2008, 08:21 PM

Hi Stu,

Alternatively,

Place a ball-filling air needle (the ones used for basketballs etc) attached to a high volume air-pump, insert it through the barrel vent, and blast away. That also helps in the case of stuck, unfired projectiles.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi again Bill,
...ALSO CHECK THAT IT IS NOT LOADED ALREADY. Some years ago a friend of mine shot his TV with an old muzzleloader which still had a charge in it! The way to check is to put the ramrod down the barrel and compare the depth with the outside. The rod SHOULD measure right back to the nipple. If it does not, then draw the old charge with some sort of long corkscrew if you don't have the proper tool.
Regards Stu

Bill M · 10th November 2008, 10:34 PM

Thank you Stu and M,

I did check to be sure the gun is not loaded by running a de-rusting solution down the barrels. They were not mounted at the time. the solution came out the nipples.

I have a little familiarity with cleaning and staining sword blades. Mostly Indonesian and Philippine.

I have used Vinegar, PCB (Radio Shack Circuit Board Etchant) and am about to try a form of arsenic called, in Indonesia, warangan.

But, I think that gun barrel Damascus is different... What would you suggest as a stain and staining process for Damascus gun barrels?

kahnjar1 · 11th November 2008, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Thank you Stu and M,

I did check to be sure the gun is not loaded by running a de-rusting solution down the barrels. They were not mounted at the time. the solution came out the nipples.

I have a little familiarity with cleaning and staining sword blades. Mostly Indonesian and Philippine.

I have used Vinegar, PCB (Radio Shack Circuit Board Etchant) and am about to try a form of arsenic called, in Indonesia, warangan.

But, I think that gun barrel Damascus is different... What would you suggest as a stain and staining process for Damascus gun barrels?

Hi Bill,
I have rebrowned many damascus barrels over the years and this is the formula I used. Clean the barrel with AJAX to remove ALL grease etc (This is most important or you will get a blotchy result), and strip off ALL old finish. Polish and immerse in BOILING water to heat the metal--this is important as the heat is need to make the process work. DON'T USE A FLAME AS IT WILL MELT THE SOLDER AND THE BARREL JOINTS WILL FALL APART. Apply solution with a CLEAN cloth EVENLY. Wash in fresh water and dry. Polish in between applications with fine steel wool. Repeat the process. Once you get the colour you want immerse again in BOILING water to cure and stop the action. (Browning and blueing are both an artificial "rusting" process)
You can buy browning paste but I have not found that it is suitable except for VERY MINOR touchup.
The mixture I used is :
64 GRAINS Mercuric Chloride
32 GRAINS Sodium Nitrate
64 GRAINS Potassium Chlorate
64 GRAINS Spirits of Nitre (4%)
32 GRAINS Potassium Nitrate
Distilled water to 1/2 Pint
You will have to find a manufacturing chemist to make up your solution, or someone who has access to the chemicals. They are a bit thin on the ground these days as most chemists just sell pills!!
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
Regards Stuart

kahnjar1 · 11th November 2008, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Stu,

Alternatively,

Place a ball-filling air needle (the ones used for basketballs etc) attached to a high volume air-pump, insert it through the barrel vent, and blast away. That also helps in the case of stuck, unfired projectiles.

Best

M

Hi Manuel,
Yes you have a British sword. Queen Victoria's Cypher. Can't tell you who maker is from Proof stamp but is there a name on the other side near hilt?
Regards Stu

celtan · 11th November 2008, 04:24 PM

A word to the wise

If you try to buy the ingredients stateside, you will get the NSA knocking on your door. They can be used to make home explosives...

BTW, guys. Can you use the vinegar to clean pitted or stained blades? If so, how would you go about it ? I have had mixed reactions to this possibility in the past, I'd like to hear yours. Likewise with the RS etchant.

Best

Manuel Luis

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Bill,
I have rebrowned many damascus barrels over the years and this is the formula I used. Clean the barrel with AJAX to remove ALL grease etc (This is most important or you will get a blotchy result), and strip off ALL old finish. Polish and immerse in BOILING water to heat the metal--this is important as the heat is need to make the process work. DON'T USE A FLAME AS IT WILL MELT THE SOLDER AND THE BARREL JOINTS WILL FALL APART. Apply solution with a CLEAN cloth EVENLY. Wash in fresh water and dry. Polish in between applications with fine steel wool. Repeat the process. Once you get the colour you want immerse again in BOILING water to cure and stop the action. (Browning and blueing are both an artificial "rusting" process)
You can buy browning paste but I have not found that it is suitable except for VERY MINOR touchup.
The mixture I used is :
64 GRAINS Mercuric Chloride
32 GRAINS Sodium Nitrate
64 GRAINS Potassium Chlorate
64 GRAINS Spirits of Nitre (4%)
32 GRAINS Potassium Nitrate
Distilled water to 1/2 Pint
You will have to find a manufacturing chemist to make up your solution, or someone who has access to the chemicals. They are a bit thin on the ground these days as most chemists just sell pills!!
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
Regards Stuart

Bill M · 11th November 2008, 05:21 PM

I wonder if there is an already made staining material? For gun barrels?

Vinegar and PCB to stain blades is similar in process to what Stu suggested for gun barrels. Clean, degrease, heat blade until it is hot, but not too hot to handle.

Vinegar will clean rust, but I usually use lime, pineapple or lemon juice.

After using vinegar / PCB, I clean residue with ammonia based cleaner (Windex) in order to neutralize the acid.

I also use distilled water. Tap water can, in some areas, cause the stain to become brown or reddish brown due to impurities in the water.

You can expect different results with sword blades, particularly with blades made in pre-industrial regions. Obviously different metals and combinations will give different results.

If you have a sword with a wooden hilt, you want to protect the wood so it does not soak up the solution. I wrap the handle in plastic and use a small amount of oil (I use Tru-oil) where the sword blade enters the handle. Carefully applied, the oil enters the wood and is less damaging than the solution.

1st November 2008, 05:58 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	WHAT DO YOU WANT TO KNOW? PROOF/CONTROL MARKS I HAVE BEEN APPROACHED BY JIM TO START A THREAD ABOUT PROOF/CONTROL MARKS FOUND ON GUNS AND OTHER WEAPONS. I HAVE A REASONABLY EXTENSIVE LIBRARY, AND WOULD BE HAPPY TO TRY TO IDENTIFY ANY MARKS WHICH MEMBERS HAVE FOUND ON OLD WEAPONS. PLEASE POST YOUR REQUESTS ON THE FORUM AND I WILL TRY TO PROVIDE ANSWERS IF I CAN. BE PATIENT AS RESEARCH CAN TAKE TIME! MEANWHILE TO GET THE BALL ROLLING I HAVE POSTED HERE THE CITY CONTROL MARKS FROM SUHL AND ALSO EARLY SWEDISH MARKS. INFORMATION SOURCE "ONE HUNDRED GREAT GUNS" BY MERRILL LINDSAY. Attached Images Last edited by kahnjar1; 1st November 2008 at 07:41 AM.

4th November 2008, 03:53 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	A FEW MORE OBSCURE MARKS TO LOOK FOR!! Thanks Jim for the comments. Just to make things more interesting here are a few more obscure marks from the same source as previous. I also would be very interested in seeing an actual weapon with ANY of these marks posted here. Have fun Guys. Attached Images

6th November 2008, 07:10 PM	#8
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Regular 19th sword, see another pis of hilt... Attached Images

7th November 2008, 10:11 PM	#12
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	How about my howdah pistol. Double barrel about .70 bore, percussion. Gun shop guy said, "Belgium - 1835 to 1855." Attached Images

8th November 2008, 03:55 AM	#13
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Howdah marks Hi Bill, Marks are Belgian Proofs as follows: The oval ELG in use from 1810 and was the SOLE MARK until 1853. The EL intertwined was introduced 1852. The numbers, 18 and 17.2 are the bore size in millimeters. Introduced 1810 and until 1894 graduated in 0.2mm graduations. After that date in 0.1mm graduations. So from the above, your pistol is likely post 1853 and probably pre 1895. Not quite what the guy in the shop said, but the marks tell the story. Nice piece by the way! Regards Stuart

4th November 2008, 12:36 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Stu , thank you so much for getting this thread started, and for beginning with such a unique subject. In discussing firearms, it seems the focus is usually on British, then French, followed by Spanish then occasionally Portuguese, at least in my perception as an observer. Obviously German guns come in as well, but seldom those from Sweden and North Europe it seems. I'm sure this order will be challenged, but basically what I am saying is that Swedish guns dont seem to turn up too often. I very much look forward to this thread developing, and as I have mentioned before, it is great to see responses on our new forum with its scope including and encouraging antique firearms discussion. I hope this thread will present a standing resource for those researching these firearms to find information on the markings which hold valuable clues and detail. It is interesting to find that Sweden had such an important firearms industry with Suhl, and its comparison to Solingen for sword blades. If I understand correctly, the sword blades used in Sweden were typically Solingen made. I am hoping someone out there might have a Suhl made weapon to post..it would be great seeing actual examples as we discuss these markings. All the best, Jim

6th November 2008, 03:25 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Looks to be a proof mark of a blade maker. Is this on a sword or a gun? A clearer pic would help showing the total stamping and surrounding decoration. Also any other information of the item. Regards Stu

6th November 2008, 09:45 AM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Ooops, my apologies. It's a 19th C. blade's ricasso mark. I'm having troubles taking good macro pictures of objects so small. I'll try to take another one. Best Manuel

7th November 2008, 03:01 AM	#9
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Sorry Manuel, You will have to post clearer and more informative pics. Looks to be a cypher on the hilt but you don't show it. What does the rest of the blade look like? Are there any other markings or inscriptions which might give a clue as to origins? In reply to your first question----what you show is a proof stamp on a sword. Other than that I can not tell anything further from what you have supplied. Regards Stuart

7th November 2008, 05:05 AM	#11
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	I do not have a great knowledge of sword proof, but I do know that the actual proof stamp itself does not necessarily give guide to the maker or origin . If you can get a pic of the cypher on the hilt, and any further cyphers on the blade, you SHOULD be able to at least arrive at country of origin and maybe even the cutler (maker). Regards Stu

10th November 2008, 10:34 PM	#18
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thank you Stu and M, I did check to be sure the gun is not loaded by running a de-rusting solution down the barrels. They were not mounted at the time. the solution came out the nipples. I have a little familiarity with cleaning and staining sword blades. Mostly Indonesian and Philippine. I have used Vinegar, PCB (Radio Shack Circuit Board Etchant) and am about to try a form of arsenic called, in Indonesia, warangan. But, I think that gun barrel Damascus is different... What would you suggest as a stain and staining process for Damascus gun barrels?

11th November 2008, 05:21 PM	#22
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I wonder if there is an already made staining material? For gun barrels? Vinegar and PCB to stain blades is similar in process to what Stu suggested for gun barrels. Clean, degrease, heat blade until it is hot, but not too hot to handle. Vinegar will clean rust, but I usually use lime, pineapple or lemon juice. After using vinegar / PCB, I clean residue with ammonia based cleaner (Windex) in order to neutralize the acid. I also use distilled water. Tap water can, in some areas, cause the stain to become brown or reddish brown due to impurities in the water. You can expect different results with sword blades, particularly with blades made in pre-industrial regions. Obviously different metals and combinations will give different results. If you have a sword with a wooden hilt, you want to protect the wood so it does not soak up the solution. I wrap the handle in plastic and use a small amount of oil (I use Tru-oil) where the sword blade enters the handle. Carefully applied, the oil enters the wood and is less damaging than the solution.