Flyssa with yataghan-like blade

[Emanuel]

Hi everyone,

Got my hands on an interesting flyssa recently. It's a big one, 42"(110cm) long overall with the usual decorative scheme, a bit crudely done thought, compared to nicer ones.

The unusual bit is the shape of the blade. No wide recurving belly, just a relatively uniform width tapering to a point, all of it, including the spine curving forward.

I looks like a very long yataghan blade.

We've seen an example of a flyssa with a back curve, but this is the first one I see with a full forward curve.

Thoughts?
Emanuel

[Emanuel]

Here is the back curved example.

[Emanuel]

And another very similar curved one although it features unconventional handle construction.

[Iain]

Interesting piece. I've seen posts here (probably yours!) before with shorter, wide bellied flyssa with yat-like blades.

Any thoughts onto what came first? The shorter variants progressing to the longer examples?

Is there any cultural/status indications with the length? Some of them are pretty dramatic.

[Emanuel]

I guess it depends on what the original inspiration was.

If the flyssa developed from the yataghan, then the shorter beefy ones came first and got progressively longer as other influences exerted themselves.

If it developed from a Circassian-type sabre, then the very long ones came first and got shorter as they transitioned to a foot soldier's weapon. My understanding is that the very short ones came last when the local Kabyle arms industry was shut down by the French, and the markets changed.

I consider these curved examples to be small, custom runs, deviating from the classical examples we know.

The fine art history student looks for a progressive development chain. In all forms of plastic arts you can follow development from an early prototype of some sort, progressing into something new. It's very difficult to see that in the flyssa. It seems to have just appeared, fully formed, like Athena bursting from Zeus' head

There's also the possibility of the older prototypes having been recycled as something else, or having been upgraded to the classical style. This would explain how the unusual flyssa can deviate in form but maintain the decorative scheme.

Lots of thoughts to sort out...

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely amazing Emanuel!!! This one is truly unusual, but not entirely surprising in the remarkable scope of these mysterious Berber swords.
We have been discussing the flyssa for how many years now? It seems at least about 12 years, and you have tenaciously and faithfully progesssed our awareness of them all along.

It seems that like with many ethnographic edged weapons, years of broadly assumed developmental theory and often regional classification has proven to be highly questionable and wrought with dispute. I think we are still as far from conclusive agreement on the origins of the flyssa, and it becomes even more clouded with the range of variations that have been revealed over years.

I think personally still that the basic form, with deep belly, indeed likely was influenced by early yataghans with more of a straight back rather than the standard recurve.
With the profound presence of Circassians in the Ottoman sphere in North Africa, I have always been curious on the distinctive needle point on the flyssa, which recalls many forms of sabre blade on Tatar examples ( the ordynka for one). By the same token, curved blades of course could have influence of wider scope.

As we discussed years ago, I believe the flyssa itself was a regionally developed form from other types of sword but produced locally in a rather iconic sense. As I understood, the young mans sword and its acquisition was a sort of 'rite of passage'. It would seem that as many of these were produced in a 'custom' manner for individuals, there may have been variations accordingly toward personal specifications. It seems I was once told as well that the yataghan itself was highly favored and aspired to by young Kabyle men, despite the clear resistance to Ottoman suzerainty.

Do you think these unusual variations may be examples of such personal tastes, or possibly reflecting either regional or period influences of other contemporary forms of weapon?

These circumstances notwithstanding, it would seem any sort of progressive development of the flyssa form itself remains as elusive as ever

All the best,
Jim

[TVV]

Emanuel,

Could it be possible that this flyssa originally had a straight blade, which was crudely hammered into a down turning one? You have the sword in hand and can judge better if this is a plausible scenario or not, but the crude lines suggest to me that the blade may have been altered at some point.

Regards,
Teodor

[Emanuel]

Hi Jim and Teodor,

I did consider that the blade might have been curved later in its life. It would originally have looked more like the attached pic from Oriental-Arms.

The blade changes angles at two spots along the blade. I can actually see the areas along the edge that show some deformation due to a forward bend of the spine. This had to have been done on a forge though, or the areas needed to be heated to permit deformation.

I think this was still an old mofification. Camille Lacoste-Dujardin wrote that after 1850 the flyssa became obsolete and the Iflissen pretty much stopped producing them. Other neighbouring tribes started modifying blades to new tastes, with forward and back curves, and selling them to resellers in Algiers for the tourist trade. Interestingly she notes that long blades were also cut down to dagger size. This would explain why short dagger flyssa still retain unnecessarily thick blades.

Jim I might have written something years ago about young Kabyle men getting their first "Utagan" or Utarran" (yataghan). IIRC the account was written by a Englishman visiting Algeria in the 1830s. I'll try to dig up that reference.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Emanuel,
Thanks for the note on LaCoste, and I do recall you telling me that some years ago on the deterioration on flyssa production after 1850. The continuation of other producers with the understandable variations outside the Iflissa perview makes good sense, and explains many variations as you note.
Thank you for noting that reference on the acquisition of 'first yataghan' etc. My note was from a conversation many years ago rather than hard reference so I would be grateful to update my notes

All the best,
Jim

[Iain]

I stumbled across these photos of flyssa recently. One a photo circa 1880 the other a mannequin display in a Paris museum. Thought I'd just add them to this thread.

[TVV]

Very interesting pictures. The first one has the flyssa thrust through the sash in a way resembling how yataghans were carried. The other one is less clear: is it suspended through a baldric or attached to the leather munitions belt? Since the first one appears a little staged, as I do not see any cartridge boxes, etc., which would normally be necessary for anyone using a flintlock rifle. The mannequin with all the arms and accoutrements on him is more intriguing.

Regards,
Teodor

[Robert]

Hello Emanuel, I've noticed what looks like waves on the cutting edge of the blade (pictured below) where the downward curve seems to start. Can you tell me if this is correct? If it is may I suggest that the reason for the down curve in this might have been caused by the blade being bent at this point by having struck against a solid object. I have seen this before on other long thin bladed swords where someone ( not knowing any better) has tried to cut things like a small tree. Just speculation on my part, but it could explain the strange blade profile.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by TVV

Very interesting pictures. The first one has the flyssa thrust through the sash in a way resembling how yataghans were carried. The other one is less clear: is it suspended through a baldric or attached to the leather munitions belt? Since the first one appears a little staged, as I do not see any cartridge boxes, etc., which would normally be necessary for anyone using a flintlock rifle. The mannequin with all the arms and accoutrements on him is more intriguing.

Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,

I agree, these staged photos are not necessarily all that accurate. However the mannequin, from the Army Museum in Paris, seems to be a little more true to life. Having seen a few of their other mannequins which seems quite well done, this one is likely also pretty accurate as well.

[CharlesS]

Firstly, a fascinating sword. Congrats. No doubt a take on the flyssa and to find such a unique example complete with its scabbard makes it even more of a gem.

I am particularly interested in the addition of hand guard to your second curved example, even if a relatively feeble looking one, and wonder who/what influenced it. Certainly there would have been many swords about with guards, but the flyssa had been such a fiercely independent form I have to think something made the addition desirable.

[Emanuel]

Hi everyone!

Thank you Iain for these pictures. I am attaching some more pictures of Kabyles. The colour one dates from 1843.

The flyssa scabbards have one or two loops carved into the wood, always on the front of the scabbard. The loops, not very wide, allow a narrow sash or a baldric to be passed through. I think it allows the flyssa to be carried both slung over the shoulder or tied into the sash.

Robert, I am now certain that this flyssa was deformed at some point and that the back was originally straight. I see two points of impact with associated deformation of the edge (the waves you see). No idea how this was done, but flyssa blades were generally made of low-carbon steel so soft enough to bend.

Charles I think that curved example with guard is a much later example assembled in a fantastical manner. It deviates completely from Iflissen construction. The guard seems to be an immitation of the guard on the French M1842 bayonet.

Emanuel