auction house experience

[silberschatzimsee]

Hi,


Has anyone experience with the auction house called czernys in italy? I am thinking of getting something tomorrow morning.

cheers
silberschatzimsee

[VANDOO]

I HAVE NOT BID ON THEIR AUCTIONS BEFORE BUT THEY HAVE BEEN IN BUSINESS FOR YEARS AND I HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING BAD ABOUT THEM SO I THINK THEY ARE REPUTABLE. WHAT PROBLEMS MAY ARISE FROM BUYING SOMETHING FROM ITALY DUE TO REGULATIONS AND THEFT VIA CUSTOMS OR THE POST IS ANOTHER POSSIBLE PROBLEM. BUT WE MUST GIVE IT A TRY AND CAN POST IF ALL IS WELL OR IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS ON THE FORUMS. GOOD LUCK

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by silberschatzimsee

Hi,


Has anyone experience with the auction house called czernys in italy? I am thinking of getting something tomorrow morning.

cheers
silberschatzimsee

I have purchased a couple of items in the past with no problems, do not forget the 20 plus percent auction fee, and the shipping, and customs tax depending on your location.

[Battara]

And please check with your country's laws regarding import of weaponry and ivory..........

[silberschatzimsee]

Thanks for your nice advice guys!

Next time i must prepare myself better though/fatten my piggy bank more.
All lots i liked went way beyond their upper valuation price. Must have been because its easter or something like that. Since i am only a beginner i was also not prepared to fight that hard for single pieces.

So i still have to wait for my first weapon purchase.

[Gavin Nugent]

Beware. There are many fakes, many composite pieces and many inaccurate descriptions. If something is not shown, ask for more images as there is often issues not shown...They also carry many fine and interesting items.

Sorry you missed your item.

Gavin

[machinist]

Do they take care of shipping or would I have to make arrangements? I miss out on European auctions because I worry and am a bit shy about shipping and language issues.

[VANDOO]

THE GOOD NEWS IS AUCTION PRICES ARE ALIVE AND WELL IN ITALY. THE BAD NEWS IS YOU HAD BETTER HAVE VERY DEEP POCKETS IF YOU WANT TO BUY SOME OF THE ITEMS. FOR INSTANCE AN ITEM I BID ON WAS ESTIMATED AT 150 TO 200 EUROS, IT SOLD FOR 1400.00 EU. DON'T GET DISCOURAGED IF YOU ARE JUST STARTING COLLECTING AS I BID ON FIVE ITEMS AND DID NOT WIN ONE AND HAVE BEEN COLLECTING SINCE THE 1960'S. ITS A MATTER OF LUCK OR WANTING SOMETHING THE FELLOWS WITH UNLIMITED MONEY DON'T WANT OR DON'T SEE. KEEP TRYING AS A FEW CRUMBS DO FALL OFF THE BIG BOYS TABLE OCCASIONALLY.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by machinist

Do they take care of shipping or would I have to make arrangements? I miss out on European auctions because I worry and am a bit shy about shipping and language issues.

Read the fine print, shipping policys are usually posted, or just ask them by email.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by silberschatzimsee

Thanks for your nice advice guys!

Next time i must prepare myself better though/fatten my piggy bank more.
All lots i liked went way beyond their upper valuation price.

What were you looking at?

Here are some things I was watching just for fun. Ottoman silahlik (weapons belt) 750 Euro / $830 US, Indian serated blade haladie 1700 Euro / $1898, Japanese kusari katabira and zukin (mail armor jacket and hood) 750 Euro / $830 US.

[CSinTX]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Beware. There are many fakes, many composite pieces and many inaccurate descriptions. If something is not shown, ask for more images as there is often issues not shown...for a company in business for so long I personally expect better...They also carry many fine and interesting items.

Sorry you missed your item.

Gavin

very accurate synopsis.

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by CSinTX

very accurate synopsis.

this is the reason why I never buy in auctions since the beginning of my collecting now more than 50 years ago.
corrado26

[A. G. Maisey]

Auction purchase is fine, if you know what you're looking at and can handle it.

Purchase from selective photographs and descriptions written by people who do not know what they're looking at is never OK.

A couple of months ago, for the first time in about 20 years, I attended an auction of arms in Sydney. Many of the items offered I had sold to the previous owner of the goods on auction, and I did have a very good understanding of the nature, quality and market value of these items.

The prices realised were so high that they simply surpassed my understanding, most especially so when the 20% or 25% auctioneer's premium was added.

Many of these items were sold to buyers in other parts of Australia, and overseas, so those buyers were also hit with packing costs on top of the shipping.

I am coming to the opinion that traditional auctions have gone past their "use by date".

[Ian]

Alan:

Thanks for your comments. I have had similar experiences. Many successful bidders at arms and armor auctions are wealthy (at least they spend a lot more than I can afford), and there seem to be many more people these days with large amounts of cash to spend with gay abandon. With online bidding for live auctions at many of the larger auction houses, it's often not the person in the room who is one's main competitor--and who knows who they are and where they may be bidding from.

What would you like to see in place of the large auction houses, Alan?

Ian.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Auction purchase is fine, if you know what you're looking at and can handle it.

Purchase from selective photographs and descriptions written by people who do not know what they're looking at is never OK.

A couple of months ago, for the first time in about 20 years, I attended an auction of arms in Sydney. Many of the items offered I had sold to the previous owner of the goods on auction, and I did have a very good understanding of the nature, quality and market value of these items.

The prices realised were so high that they simply surpassed my understanding, most especially so when the 20% or 25% auctioneer's premium was added.

Many of these items were sold to buyers in other parts of Australia, and overseas, so those buyers were also hit with packing costs on top of the shipping.

I am coming to the opinion that traditional auctions have gone past their "use by date".

[A. G. Maisey]

I've never given much thought to it Ian.

Going back far into the past I used to buy at auction frequently. No buyers premium, auctioneers charged 10% of the hammer price, no GST (VAT). These days its a totally different ball game.

As you say there are telephone bidders and they bid from all over. At the auction I attended they had I don't know how many people up front taking calls and doing all sorts of funny things. Not like the old days when it was an auctioneer and a penciller.

Used to be simple, now its complex and the commissions and premiums pay for the complexity.

Replace this circus with what?

I don't know.

ebay and other similar sites seem to work OK for some people.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by corrado26

this is the reason why I never buy in auctions since the beginning of my collecting now more than 50 years ago.
corrado26

You never bought anything from Ebay? There is not much difference between Ebay and an auction house except the buyers premium.

[A. G. Maisey]

Oh yes, I've bought from ebay:- batteries, photographic gear, bicycle parts, exercise gear, other stuff I forget.

But I have not bought any keris nor any of the other things I collect.

Nor have I ever sold any of this type of thing on ebay.

The reason I have not bought collectables or art works from ebay is that I do not buy from very poor photographs nor inaccurate descriptions. I do not like to gamble.

If I bought and I found that I had bought a dud, I am not in the position where I can simply recycle the item and resell through ebay, as so many people do, thus, a bad buy for me is absolutely, 100% dead money. I'm stuck with it.

The big difference between ebay and a live auction is that at a live auction I can go to the viewing and thoroughly examine the items to be auctioned. I would know exactly what the item is that I'm bidding on, and I will also know the market value of that item at several different levels.

I do not buy from on-line auctions either, for precisely the same reason I do not buy from ebay.

[ALEX]

unlike eBay where one can find something reasonably nice and reasonably priced, Czerny's is in Italy and runs as most Italian family-owned businesses as stated before by others, some altered, composite and misrepresented items, fees and "special" shipping, etc... - this is not the place to pick-up "crumbs falling off the big boys table" in my opinion, similar to some other conventional auction houses.
As Alan mentioned, many pieces that go to these auctions were bought from dealers we know or off eBay, then re-branded with added premium.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The reason I have not bought collectables or art works from ebay is that I do not buy from very poor photographs nor inaccurate descriptions. I do not like to gamble.

If I bought and I found that I had bought a dud, I am not in the position where I can simply recycle the item and resell through ebay, as so many people do, thus, a bad buy for me is absolutely, 100% dead money. I'm stuck with it.

The big difference between ebay and a live auction is that at a live auction I can go to the viewing and thoroughly examine the items to be auctioned. I would know exactly what the item is that I'm bidding on, and I will also know the market value of that item at several different levels.

I do not buy from on-line auctions either, for precisely the same reason I do not buy from ebay.

Many Ebay items are very well photographed and often sellers have no problem providing additional photos. Many sellers on Ebay allow you to return items (unlike auction houses) and Paypal protects sellers quite well if an item is not accurately described.

Unlike the "old days", anyone can search auctions all over the world now and bid without leaving home, not risk free of course but the alternative was worse. I remember when there was no Ebay and professional antique dealers scowered the auctions and you had almost no alternative other then buying from them unless you were able to personally attend a live auction were you lived.

[ariel]

I use eBay extensively. This is the only place where a reasonably educated collector can spot sleepers of excellent quality and get them for a song. I have quite a lot of those in my collection.

Several of my Caucasian items were shown in Kirill Rivkin's book: all from eBay, all for ridiculously low prices.

Is there a risk of ending with a dud? Of course. But in the majority of cases one can return it ( swallowing the expense of shipping back, of course), or just accepting the reality of "cost doing the business."

[Roland_M]

Hi,

one year ago i won an Indian Katar on Czerny's.

In my case i received no message or bill until i wrote an Email to Czerny's.

My contact Mrs. Bologna was very friendly.

[A. G. Maisey]

Well, I guess I'm wrong and you people are right, but just the same, in spite of over 60 years' worth of experience in my own field of expertise, in spite of having had the benefit of tuition by Javanese empus and other craftsmen who are legends in their own country, in spite of having bought and sold keris internationally for almost 40 years, I still lack the ability to adequately appraise a keris from the photographs that I have seen provided by both ebay sellers and on-line auction houses, and as for their descriptions, I'd as soon not comment.

I am not for one moment suggesting that others cease to gain satisfaction from ebay and on-line auctions, I am only saying that I do not yet have sufficient knowledge and experience to permit me to do so.

I suppose I should add that I do have other sources which over the years have permitted me to obtain some quite acceptable items. Sources that are not available to most people.

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by estcrh

You never bought anything from Ebay? There is not much difference between Ebay and an auction house except the buyers premium.

Oh yes there is a very, very big difference between auction houses and eBay in Germany, because eBay in Germany does not allow to offer weapons because of German laws. So nobody is able to buy pistols, swords, daggers, knifes etc. at eBay.
In the last 50 years I managed to build up a well functioning net of connections in the field of arms collecting in whole Europe that I am not forced to buy at auctions and so I avoid to make rich the owners of auction houses.
corrado26

[VANDOO]

FROM A DEALERS OR COLLECTORS POINT OF VIEW GOOD TRUSTED CONNECTIONS OR HAVING HANDS ON THE ITEMS IS TRULY THE BEST WAY TO GO. ONLINE AUCTIONS ARE A RISK AND OFTEN THE PICTURES ARE TAKEN BY AMATEURS OR TOO SMALL SO NO GOOD ASSESSMENT CAN BE MADE. THE COST OF SHIPPING IS OFTEN HIGH USUALLY BECAUSE OF HIGH SHIPPING CHARGES BUT SOMETIMES MADE INTENTIONALLY HIGH BY THE SELLER TO BEAT EBAY OUT OF SOME CASH AND ENHANCE THEIR PROFIT. IN THE EARLY DAYS OF EBAY MOST DEALERS DID NOT BID BUT SOON HIGH END ETHNO ART GALLERY DEALERS GOT IN THE GAME AND LATER SOME AUCTION HOUSES AS WELL. ONE PARTICULAR AUCTION STOCKS UP REGULARLY AND IS EITHER OWNED BY OR EBAY OR OWNS IT ? I OFTEN AM OUT BID ON A RARE ITEM AND LATER SEE IT ON THEIR AUCTIONS PRICED WAY OUT OF MY RANGE . THEY ALSO BUY UP ITEMS AND PUT THEM TOGETHER AS A NICELY DISPLAYED COLLECTION FOR SALE IN NATURAL HISTORY AUCTIONS. ITS FUN TO LOOK EVEN IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO BID , OFTEN THERE ARE SOME UNIQUE
ITEMS.
AUCTION HOUSES HAVE GOTTEN GREEDY WITH THEIR COMMISSIONS AS THEY CHARGE BOTH SELLER AND BUYER. IF ITS 25% FOR EACH THEY TAKE HOME HALF OF THE MONEY FOR EACH ITEM. ITEMS THEY BUY ON EBAY AND PLACE HIGH RESERVES AND ESTIMATES ON ALSO LINE THEIR POCKETS AND STILL BRING IN A 20 TO 25 % COMMISSION FROM THE BUYER AS WELL.
THE ITEMS I BID ON IN THIS AUCTION WERE INCOMPLETE BUT RARE AND WITH SOME PROVENANCE.THEY WENT HIGH FOR INCOMPLETE ITEMS BUT REASONABLE IF THEY HAD BEEN COMPLETE. I HOPED THAT DEALERS OR HIGH END COLLECTORS WOULD NOT WANT THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT COMPLETE. BUT SOMEONE EVEN FINDS THE CRUMBS TASTY
EBAY HAS BEEN GOOD FOR ME AND I HAVE ONLY GOT SCAMMED AND BURNED TWO TIMES AND NOT FOR A LOT OF MONEY. MOST ITEMS I WIN ON EBAY THESE DAYS ARE LOW END ITEMS OR NOT OLD ANTIQUES BUT ARE AT A FAIR PRICE. THERE ARE FEW ITEMS AT THE LOCAL GUN SHOWS SO EBAY AT LEAST LETS ME KEEP MY HAND IN AT COLLECTING AND I OCCASIONALLY GET A GOOD TREASURE.

[mariusgmioc]

I bought many items from Czerny's. Some at fairly moderate prices.

Unfortunately, in most cases the prices go much higher than a normal collector would expect, as Czerny's is one of (if not "the") most reputed auction houses for weapons.

Moreover, their sales regularly include exceptional items that would be the pride of any reputed museum.

Like most auction houses, they add a hefty premium to the hammer price, but the shipping is reasonably priced and handled hassle-free in-house.

In my oppinion they also provide the best quality photos for the lots they sell.

However, it may happen that the lots are erroneously described.

PS: In thir latest auction I placed about 12 bids and didn't win any single lot...

[digenis]

I have picked up several items at Czerny's, Auctions Imperial and Hermann Historica. I do think the prices have gone through the roof. Nonetheless, you do find excellent quality items in these auction venues. I agree with the previous post the EBay has some excellent finds if you are persistent and know your stuff.

[A. G. Maisey]

In respect of my ebay comments, I feel that I should be fair by saying that at a different stage in my collecting life, I would probably have bought from ebay, and from on-line auction houses.

However, I've been collecting for more than 60 years now, and I'm at a different point in my collecting than I was 30 or 40 years ago.

Roughly three times a week I get queries from other collectors asking me to comment on keris that they have bought from ebay or some other on-line source, sometimes the keris that I am asked to comment on are pretty nice keris, and at the price paid, they were a good buy, but even so, I have yet to see any keris referred to me in this way that I have had any desire at all to add to my collection.

Similarly, when I do take the time to browse the on-line sources I never see anything that I would be tempted to bid on.

The simple fact of the matter is that I collect on a different level and in a different way to most other collectors, so although ebay and other online sources might be good for a lot of people, they are pretty useless for me.

For many other people these on-line sources might very well be worth attention.

Its all a matter of what one wants or needs.

[silberschatzimsee]

Wow quite an interessting discussion going on since my last login. I apologise for not answering since I had some health and personal issues.

Concerning the eBay discussion, since I also collect coins I know that 90% off all forgeries come from that place. I prefer to miss out "bargains" and maybe pay 10-20% more in an reputable place than having sleepless nights over the authenticity of an piece.
Off course I admit there surely nice bargains to be made but you always have to check that site for not to miss it.
Furthermore since I am a still a completely novice on the field of swords there is an very high chance me getting ripped off on eBay or the 'fleamarket'. Off course getting misguided at a major auctionhouse is also possible but the chances are quite smaller. That's why I asked you guys about czernys initally since I didn't know them. Thanks again for your advices


I ordered now myself the 2 books of Peirce and Oakeschott and will read into it. I am planning to participate at bonhams in 1 month so there is still some time for me.
Also I am comparing the realised prices of the last few years to get a feeling how far I can go and when my piggybank is starting to cry.
Somehow I don't really understand them yet. I was under the impression that thousands of viking swords were found. So why is a rare? 'ulfberth' cheaper than a seemingly nameless vikingsword?
And to stay with this topic, at what do you look at a viking sword to judge it's quality?

Many thanks in advance

Cheers
Silberschatzimsee