French hunting hanger sword, Hussar/Pandour style?

kronckew · 24th February 2019, 08:11 PM

Acquired this hunting hanger yesterday, appears to be a French hunting sword of the Hussar/Pandour style of the 18c. The blade is lightly pitted all over but appears to have once had elaborate decoration, i can make out a pair of large crescent moon faces with prominent noses on one side, possible 6-point stars, and a circular feature on the other side. The blade is 60cm. long, 4 cm. wide at guard, 8mm thick there. The spine is sharpened for 17 cm. then flat to guard inscribed with three parallel lines in the flat spine. The right side has the two moon faces, the left side has a circular feature with what may be a sword diagonally under it as well as a flag. All rather indistinct. 12cm. bone grip in great shape, peened over a brass keeper, missing one brass oval stud. 'Oriental' style brass guard with floral engraving.

Any comments appreciated, Thanks in advance for any additional info. I recall seeing similar ones here with clearer and very similar inscriptions...

fernando · 24th February 2019, 09:17 PM

C'mon Wayne, you sure can do better with picturing the blade details. Chose a different light, or and a different angle, i don't know ... just try

.

kronckew · 24th February 2019, 09:35 PM

Been a bit foggy here, I'll try when it gets a bit sunny.

I'll see if some light rust removal helps...

fernando · 24th February 2019, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... Been a bit foggy here ...

Foggy ... in Britain ?

.

M ELEY · 25th February 2019, 02:37 AM

Nice hanger, Wayne. If you use the contrast feature on your Photo Gallery pic, you can often bring out the details better. Not a lot t add other than saying the sun and moon symbols were common on blades from this period, cannibalistic in nature and not necessarily exclusive to the pandour styles.

ariel · 25th February 2019, 04:44 AM

I am sure you meant Kabbalistic, not cannibalistic, but your computer decided differently:-)
I have to fight with my iPad 24/7....So far I am usually winning, but the bugger gives me good fight. I am afraid that AI will prevail at the end.

Kmaddock · 25th February 2019, 11:07 AM

Bit busy here so a quick reply
v nice sword you have
First impression was that the cross guard looks similar to a Chinese Jian?
I can post images later
regards to all
Ken

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2019, 05:25 PM

Excellent observation Ken!!! That crossguard is indeed reminiscent of a Chinese jian.
This is as noted a hirshchfanger/ hunting sword of the 18th c. and these were often with blades emblazoned with cabbalistic motif which could include a range of themes usually cosmological and or with magic and occult devices.

These were typical of these typically status oriented swords that appealed to the gentry and upper echelon....the hunt was of course much like golf is in todays executive world, a medium for gatherings of prestige.

The 'fads' of these times included often fanciful applications of occult and current fashion, and in the 18th century there was a deep attraction to things 'Oriental' . There were even Chinese artisans in East Europe, the Netherlands who were decorating weapons and their elements.

The 'Pandours' were regiments of 'Oriental' style troops of Austro_Hungary which included ethnic groups from the Balkans and Easten Europe including largely Croatians. Their exotic dress, and weaponry , was much favored by officers of cavalry where these units operated as auxiliary forces.

The appeal of their 'renegade' nature and fearsome reputation appealed to the hubris of such male fashion throughout Europe as the 'orientalized' and mysteriously emblazoned blades and fancy hilts recalled the very swords used by many Pandours.

While this intriguing example looks like many swords associated with Pandours, it is 'of the form' known to have been used, and likely copied in years following as Pandour type units became popular though the rest of the 18th century into 'FreiKorps' type units into Napoloeonic period.

kronckew · 25th February 2019, 08:42 PM

Thanks to all. I am moving to a new flat over the coming weekend, so won't be able to rephotograph it for a while, and will be incommunicado until they switch the phone on in the new place and reactivate my broadband. I've had a friend comment that the guard was very Jian-like, the rest of the grip & blade, of course, is not. As Jim notes, I found reference to the upper crust fascination with the 'eastern' pandour style, and the French made the hangers like mine to assuage their hunger for the style.

p.s.- Fernando, today was an unseasonably warm day, sunny, and not a cloud to be seen, reminds me a lot of Portuguese weather, tho slightly cooler. Since they banned coal fire heating in London many moons ago, solving the air pollution, it has the side effect of eliminating most of the fog, and that has filtered out to the boondocks, the fog usually is on the side of the river behind the hill I'm on. We actually occasionally have days in the low 30's centigrade in the summer. But not too many. We've stopped wearing top hats and bowlers too. Fedoras are still fairly popular.

Had to wear a broad-brimmed hat today and photo-reactive lenses. I was, however, busy away from home redirecting my mail & utilities and ordering new carpet and blinds. (I'm moving to a new flat about 12 miles away, it's just under twice the size of my present one. More room for sharp pointy stuff!

)

M ELEY · 25th February 2019, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am sure you meant Kabbalistic, not cannibalistic, but your computer decided differently:-)
I have to fight with my iPad 24/7....So far I am usually winning, but the bugger gives me good fight. I am afraid that AI will prevail at the end.

Ariel, you are correct in that the spell checker got the better of me. But then again, perhaps the sword was used by cannibals?

Victrix · 26th February 2019, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Ariel, you are correct in that the spell checker got the better of me. But then again, perhaps the sword was used by cannibals?

Sorry, but could not resist posting this...

kronckew · 26th February 2019, 08:40 PM

He is NOT a happy camper! Probably because he could not afford my new toy.

kronckew · 28th February 2019, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Nice hanger, Wayne. If you use the contrast feature on your Photo Gallery pic, you can often bring out the details better.... the sun and moon symbols were common on blades from this period, cannibalistic in nature and not necessarily exclusive to the pandour styles.

The photos above have already been 'enhanced'. I took an HDR photo of one moon and tweaked it with HDR software, then ran it thru an intelligent forensic enhancement filter to show what it originally may have looked like...

(OK, the Intelligent enhancement filter was me doing a google search and pinching an image)

24th February 2019, 08:11 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	French hunting hanger sword, Hussar/Pandour style? Acquired this hunting hanger yesterday, appears to be a French hunting sword of the Hussar/Pandour style of the 18c. The blade is lightly pitted all over but appears to have once had elaborate decoration, i can make out a pair of large crescent moon faces with prominent noses on one side, possible 6-point stars, and a circular feature on the other side. The blade is 60cm. long, 4 cm. wide at guard, 8mm thick there. The spine is sharpened for 17 cm. then flat to guard inscribed with three parallel lines in the flat spine. The right side has the two moon faces, the left side has a circular feature with what may be a sword diagonally under it as well as a flag. All rather indistinct. 12cm. bone grip in great shape, peened over a brass keeper, missing one brass oval stud. 'Oriental' style brass guard with floral engraving. Any comments appreciated, Thanks in advance for any additional info. I recall seeing similar ones here with clearer and very similar inscriptions... Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 24th February 2019 at 08:44 PM.

25th February 2019, 04:44 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am sure you meant Kabbalistic, not cannibalistic, but your computer decided differently:-) I have to fight with my iPad 24/7....So far I am usually winning, but the bugger gives me good fight. I am afraid that AI will prevail at the end. Last edited by ariel; 25th February 2019 at 05:59 AM.

24th February 2019, 09:17 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	C'mon Wayne, you sure can do better with picturing the blade details. Chose a different light, or and a different angle, i don't know ... just try .

24th February 2019, 09:35 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	Been a bit foggy here, I'll try when it gets a bit sunny. I'll see if some light rust removal helps...

25th February 2019, 02:37 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	Nice hanger, Wayne. If you use the contrast feature on your Photo Gallery pic, you can often bring out the details better. Not a lot t add other than saying the sun and moon symbols were common on blades from this period, cannibalistic in nature and not necessarily exclusive to the pandour styles.

25th February 2019, 11:07 AM	#7
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Bit busy here so a quick reply v nice sword you have First impression was that the cross guard looks similar to a Chinese Jian? I can post images later regards to all Ken

25th February 2019, 05:25 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Excellent observation Ken!!! That crossguard is indeed reminiscent of a Chinese jian. This is as noted a hirshchfanger/ hunting sword of the 18th c. and these were often with blades emblazoned with cabbalistic motif which could include a range of themes usually cosmological and or with magic and occult devices. These were typical of these typically status oriented swords that appealed to the gentry and upper echelon....the hunt was of course much like golf is in todays executive world, a medium for gatherings of prestige. The 'fads' of these times included often fanciful applications of occult and current fashion, and in the 18th century there was a deep attraction to things 'Oriental' . There were even Chinese artisans in East Europe, the Netherlands who were decorating weapons and their elements. The 'Pandours' were regiments of 'Oriental' style troops of Austro_Hungary which included ethnic groups from the Balkans and Easten Europe including largely Croatians. Their exotic dress, and weaponry , was much favored by officers of cavalry where these units operated as auxiliary forces. The appeal of their 'renegade' nature and fearsome reputation appealed to the hubris of such male fashion throughout Europe as the 'orientalized' and mysteriously emblazoned blades and fancy hilts recalled the very swords used by many Pandours. While this intriguing example looks like many swords associated with Pandours, it is 'of the form' known to have been used, and likely copied in years following as Pandour type units became popular though the rest of the 18th century into 'FreiKorps' type units into Napoloeonic period.

25th February 2019, 08:42 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	Thanks to all. I am moving to a new flat over the coming weekend, so won't be able to rephotograph it for a while, and will be incommunicado until they switch the phone on in the new place and reactivate my broadband. I've had a friend comment that the guard was very Jian-like, the rest of the grip & blade, of course, is not. As Jim notes, I found reference to the upper crust fascination with the 'eastern' pandour style, and the French made the hangers like mine to assuage their hunger for the style. p.s.- Fernando, today was an unseasonably warm day, sunny, and not a cloud to be seen, reminds me a lot of Portuguese weather, tho slightly cooler. Since they banned coal fire heating in London many moons ago, solving the air pollution, it has the side effect of eliminating most of the fog, and that has filtered out to the boondocks, the fog usually is on the side of the river behind the hill I'm on. We actually occasionally have days in the low 30's centigrade in the summer. But not too many. We've stopped wearing top hats and bowlers too. Fedoras are still fairly popular. Had to wear a broad-brimmed hat today and photo-reactive lenses. I was, however, busy away from home redirecting my mail & utilities and ordering new carpet and blinds. (I'm moving to a new flat about 12 miles away, it's just under twice the size of my present one. More room for sharp pointy stuff! )

26th February 2019, 08:40 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	He is NOT a happy camper! Probably because he could not afford my new toy.