BIG GUNS

[VANDOO]

THIS MAY GO A BIT OFF TOPIC TO SOME EXAMPLES POST 1900 BUT I FEEL IT WOULD BE AMISS TO EXCLUDE THE GIANT RAIL GUNS FROM WW1 AND WW2. TWO PICTURES ARE OF CIVIL WAR BIG GUNS, ONE IS A 13INCH MORTAR USED AT PETERSBURG VIRGINIA DURING THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR. ANOTHER IS SEVERAL CANNON AND CANNON BALLS AT RICHMOND VIRGINIA AFTER IT WAS BURNED BY THE VICTORS. THERE ARE TWO PICTURES OF THE ORIGINAL BIG BERTHA FROM WW1 AND TWO OF THE LARGER RAIL GUNS BUILT BY GERMANY FOR KRUPP ARMEMENT WORKS IN GERMANY WW2 AND A SHELL AND CHARGE FOR THE GUN. THE KRUPP GUN HAD A 80 CM BORE THE SHELLS WERE ALMOST 17 FEET LONG AND WEIGHED OVER 7 TONS, RANGE 29 MILES. IT WAS DESIGNED TO PENETRATE BUNKERS AND WOULD PENETRATE 80 YARDS DEEP AND LEAVE A CRATER 90 FEET ACROSS AND 30 FEET DEEP. THE GUN WEIGHED 1350 METRIC TONS, WAS 4 STORIES HIGH, 20 FOOT WIDE AND 140 FEET LONG. THE RECOIL OFTEN PUSHED THE GUNS BACK ON THE RAILROAD TRACKS 100 FEET. THE BIG KRUPP GUN WAS SET ON A DOUBBLE SET OF RAILS.
NAVAL VESSELS HAD AN ADVANTAGE OVER LAND BASED BIG GUNS AS THE WATER HELPED TAKE UP THE RECOIL. LAND GUNS PICTURED 1940 LARGE CANNONS AT SCHOFIELD BARRACKS HAWAII. AND A WW1 BRITISH GUN ON WHEELS.
KRUPP ALSO BUILT A 52 CM BORE GUN THAT SHOT FINNED ARROW SHELLS 95 MILES.
JUST FOR FUN IS A PICTURE FROM HAWAII WITH GIRLS STANDING BY SURF BOARDS ALSO KNOWN AS BIG GUNS.

[M ELEY]

Ahhh, Barry, I especially like the last pic-

The penetration power of the krupp gun was incredible. Would have worked nicely against Hitler's bunker if it had been brought into use there. The thickness of the barrel and just plain massiveness of the gun reminds me of those used by the Knights of St John at Malta. How they ever loaded them, I know not...

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting topic Vandoo! and as always it is fascinating to look into all aspects of arms and armor, from what they developed into in modern times into the deeply intriguing weapons of old.

As Mark has noted mentioning the massive guns of Malta, it brings to mind the fabled gun at Edinburgh, Mons Meg.

This huge bombard was apparantly built to order for the 'Grand Duke of the West' Philip (the Good) of Burgundy, and first fired in 1449 at Mons (in Wallonia). The 'good' duke is better known for his capture of Joan of Arc at Compiegne.

This huge medieval supergun was about 15 feet long, weighed 15,366 lbs and fired a ball of around 400 lbs! It is noted that the gun could only be fired about 8 times a day from the intense heat generated by the massive powder charge.

The gun was presented to King James II of Scotland by Philip about 1457, and apparantly suffered a burst barrel when it was fired about 1680, with suggestions of possible sabotage.

I always wondered what in the world 'Mons Meg' meant, though clearly the Mons referred to the city in Flanders where it was from. According to what I could find in OED, the term 'meg' referred loosely to any huge ordnance, and or to the loud noise or report. In one reference around 1700, it was used describing loud noise of ringing bells and the discharge of 'roaring megs'.

Another large gun which is lesser known but appears of the same ilk as Mons Meg, was the 'Great Cannon of Ghent', and of similar construction of welded iron bars. It was known as Dulle Griet (=foolish or evil meg) and often termed the red devil as it was painted red. It also bears insignia of the Order of the Golden Fleece (created by good Philip in 1430) and the cross of Burgundy.

Right now in the travels of the 'bookmobile' (our trusty RV) we are situated at a lake in Killeen, Texas, quite near Ft. Hood. At often odd hours it seems we are somewhat near enough to hear the loud booming reports of the 'megs' being fired on the artillery range. At times they are loud enough to rattle windows and you can almost feel the concussion! I often wonder if the firing at 3AM is to intensify the sound, which permeates the otherwise still night.

The attached are Mons Meg, Philip the Good, map of the area of origin of Mons Meg (Mons is called Bergen , the Dutch name, on the map), and Mons Meg as it appeared c. 1680.

All best regards,
Jim

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I always wondered what in the world 'Mons Meg' meant, though clearly the Mons referred to the city in Flanders where it was from. According to what I could find in OED, the term 'meg' referred loosely to any huge ordnance, and or to the loud noise or report. In one reference around 1700, it was used describing loud noise of ringing bells and the discharge of 'roaring megs'.

Hey Jim, in the Wiki entry this info is sited to Agnes MacKenzie in the book Scottish Paegent.
"The gun is never called "Mons Meg" in any contemporary references until the 17th century. The "Meg" may either be a reference to Margaret of Denmark, Queen of James III of Scotland, or simply an alliteration, while Mons was one of the locations where the cannon was originally tested. McKenzie records that this class of artillery was known as a murderer and Mons Meg was certainly described as such."

[Jim McDougall]

Hi David, thank you for answering!!! and great info, which appears to be right. In "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800" (ed. David Caldwell, Edinburgh, 1981, p.419, Stevenson) the author notes that, "...in 1967 Dr. Claude Gaier gave us at last the fascinating documentation of the bombard first ,and apparantly until the 17th c.called 'mons', now familiarly known as Mons Meg".

"Music is a roaring meg against melancholy "
-Burton

In the 17th century, 'Roaring Meg' was a term used for several powerful cannons used, but in particular associated with a mortar cast in 1646 during the seige of Goodrich Castle .

According to E.C.Brewer ("Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" 1905) the name meg has been given to several articles of unusual size- thus the large blue black marble in the south cloister of Westminster Abbey over the grave of Gerrasius de Blois is called 'long meg of Westminster'.
The author also notes ' Mons Meg' and that the 'bomb' (bombard?) forged for the seige of Oudendarde now in the city of Ghent is called 'Mad Meg'.
It is also noted in "Edinburgh Antiquarian" of September, 1769 that a very tall man named Peter Branan was often called 'Long Meg'.
The monoliths near Penrith Cumberland, and about 67 in number, being about 10 ft. high, are arranged together, but one separate, and about 15 ft. high is termed ' Long Meg', and the arrangement called by locals and in subsequent lore, 'Long Meg and her daughters'.
Apparantly the term 'long meg' dates in these type parlances from about the time of Henry VIII.

It would seem that 'Mons' was given to James II in 1457, and long stood as a powerful appearing sentinel, with Brewer in another note, mentions that to the Scots, thought of her as a 'palladium'. That is a safeguard or something that provides safety to a city. It would seem to me that the term 'meg' with reference to unusual size, and in the perception that it was rather an item that showed power , was probably more of a product of the kind of traditional sentiment generated by Sir Walter Scott, and popularized by him with reference to this gun.

He was instrumental in the return to Edinburgh of the huge gun from London in 1828-29, and the term seems to be applied rather affectionately in some of the references in correspondence imploring the return.

It should be noted that the bombard previously mentioned and known as 'mad meg' was also known as 'the Red Devil' for its red paint. In a note regarding Mons Meg, when it had fallen into disuse after the collapse of its carraige, and having been neglected, was lifted up onto trestles and 'painted with red lead' in 1501.

Was this red lead paint a kind of 'japanning' for protection from corrosion? or was it it more of the psychological effect that was clearly attached to these huge weapons?

In the Royal navy it seems that the gun decks were painted red on many of the Man of War ships, allegedly to reduce the effect of gore in the effects of battle, but wonder if there is any relation.

attached, Roaring Meg


All best regards,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Chaps,

Beautiful pictures and a great post with amazing information gents, stuff I certainly never knew or ventured in to but one question that has always been on my mind since seeing the cannon in Elgoods Hindu work, HOW ON EARTH DID ANYONE LOAD THESE MUZZLE LOADING massive cannons????

Gav

[VANDOO]

THEY WOULD HAVE USED A LOADING SLING ON A LARGE LIFT. I CAN'T FIND A PICTURE BUT NO DOUBT IT RESEMBLED THE SIEGE MACHINES USED TO THROW LARGE ROCKS. THE BALL WOULD BE ROLLED INTO POSITION IN THE SLING THEN THE BALL LIFTED AND SWUNG TO THE BARREL AND THEN PUSHED IN. THE CHARGE OF POWDER AND WADDING IF ANY WOULD GO IN FIRST THEN THE BALL. TAMP IT IN AND TOUCH IT OFF. DON'T STAND BEHIND THE CANNON THE SAME GOES FOR THE RECOILESS CANNON BUT ITS THE BLAST THAT GETS YA NOT THE ACTUAL CANNON RUNNING OVER YOU.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THEY WOULD HAVE USED A LOADING SLING ON A LARGE LIFT. I CAN'T FIND A PICTURE BUT NO DOUBT IT RESEMBLED THE SIEGE MACHINES USED TO THROW LARGE ROCKS. THE BALL WOULD BE ROLLED INTO POSITION IN THE SLING THEN THE BALL LIFTED AND SWUNG TO THE BARREL AND THEN PUSHED IN. THE CHARGE OF POWDER AND WADDING IF ANY WOULD GO IN FIRST THEN THE BALL. TAMP IT IN AND TOUCH IT OFF. DON'T STAND BEHIND THE CANNON THE SAME GOES FOR THE RECOILESS CANNON BUT ITS THE BLAST THAT GETS YA NOT THE ACTUAL CANNON RUNNING OVER YOU.

Thanks Vandoo, this is exactly what I thought but as yet I haven't seen one. I really would have expected to see something like this in the civil war image above as they also look bloody heavy! The guy second in on the right seems to have a large set of calipers or something else perhaps to aid lifting with two men?

Gav

[VANDOO]

I HAVE DONE A BIT MORE DIGGING SEARCH WIKIPEDIA FOR "LIST OF LARGEST CANNONS BY CALIBER". THERE ARE SOME GOOD PICTURES AND INFO THERE. I HAVE INCLUDED A FEW MORE PICTURES TO KEEP IT INTERESTING.
1. FIRE SACK MEDEVIL SIEGE EMPLACEMENT , NOTE HOW THEY HAVE A DOOR TO PROTECT THE LOADERS AND HOW THE GUN IS SECURED AGAINST RECOIL. THE BEST SECURITY WOULD HAVE BEEN TO USE A LIVE TREE AND CUT IT OFF AND SECURE THE GUN AGAINST IT IF POSSIBLE OTHERWISE A LOT OF DIGGING AND SHORING UP OF LONG POLES WOULD HAVE BEEN NECESSARY.
2. AUSTRALIAN WW1 TRENCH MORTAT EMPLACEMENT. THE MORTAR WAS ESPECIALLY SUITED FOR TRENCH FIGHTING AS THE SHELL WENT UP AND DROPPED DOWN INTO THE TRENCH WHERE DIRECT FIRING GUNS COULD NOT.
3. PUMHART VON STEYR, STYRIA AUSTRIA 15 TH CENTURY, BORE 820MM, 690 KG. STONE BALL, 15KG POWDER, RANGE 600 METERS
4. 18TH CENTURY FRENCH MOTAR DIAGRAM
5. SMALL FRENCH TRENCH MORTAR WW1
6. KNIGHTS OF SAINT JOHN, 1480 TO 1500 FIRED 260KG BALLS
7. 600MM MOTORIZED KARL GERHERT ,FIREING ALSO SEE LOADING LIFT.
8. MALLETS MORTAR, BORE 910MM, 1857, BRITISH, EXPLOSIVE SHELLS.
9. PAIX HANS MONSTER MORTAR 1832
10. TSAR CANNON LARGEST BORE AT 890MM.

NOTE IN THE FIRST POST SOME OF THE CANNON BALLS IN THE FIRST PICTURE WERE HOLLOW AND CONTAINED EXPLOSIVE CHARGES. THAT WOULD BE LIGHTER THAN SOLID SHOT BUT STILL QUITE HEAVY IN THE LARGER CALIBERS.
THE SECOND PICTURE IS OF A MORTAR NAMED THE GENERAL, NOTE THE STEPS AT ITS FRONT . I SUSPECT AT LEAST 4 MEN USING SOME SORT OF SLING LOADED THE BALL ONE GOING UP THE STEPS TO EACH SIDE OF THE BARREL AND TWO IN THE MIDDLE TO SUPPORT IT AND PUSH IT IN. JUST A GUESS AND I AM GLAD I DON'T HAVE TO BE ONE OF THE MEN ON A LOADING CREW.

[junker]

Hello,
here is a link for the second largest canon in europe called the "Faule Mette" from 1411 which was locatet in the city of Braunschweig, germany.
The balls had a weight of 550 kg and waer made of stone, the caliber was 76 cm. It was too heavy to take it away and was allways on the city walls. It just shoot 12 times and was cast in 1787

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faule_Mette

I saw one of the balls in the local museum
by the way there was one item which could be interestin for matchlock. There is also a 4 barreled wodden hand canon in the museum

[RDGAC]

I love the sheer, almost absurd size of the really huge guns. You can't help but go "wtf!?", for instance, when seeing the Pumhart von Steyr's enormous bore coupled to a tiny, tiny breech, in a squat whole that makes it remind me of Fizzgig from The Dark Crystal! And of course, the Paris Gun. A gun that needs supports merely to remain straight. That's just two of 'em.

I guess the most wonderful thing about them is that, but for their having been made, one would say that they were flights of fancy - very fanciful fancy at that.

Separated at birth: Fizzgig and the Pumhart von Steyr

[celtan]

Murderer = Mortar

Palladium = Champion / Defender / Warrior representing a cause, person or group.

: )

Originally Posted by David

Hey Jim, in the Wiki entry this info is sited to Agnes MacKenzie in the book Scottish Paegent.
"The gun is never called "Mons Meg" in any contemporary references until the 17th century. The "Meg" may either be a reference to Margaret of Denmark, Queen of James III of Scotland, or simply an alliteration, while Mons was one of the locations where the cannon was originally tested. McKenzie records that this class of artillery was known as a murderer and Mons Meg was certainly described as such."

[VANDOO]

HERE IS A IMPRESSIVE PICTURE OF THE GERMAN 250MM. K5 FIRING. NOTE THE TROOPS COVERING THEIR EARS AND THE LOADING MECANISM PARTIALLY SHOWN. A VERY IMPRESSIVE MUZZLE BLAST.

[VANDOO]

A FEW MORE BIG GUNS.
1 TWO GERMAN BATTLESHIP GUNS, ALSO USED ON SHORE AS NAVAL SHORE GUNS. A 30.5CM AND A 38CM GUN
2. GERMAQN DORA GUN READY TO FIRE NOTE SHELL AND CHARGE SIZE
3. BULL'S SUPER GUN HARP 1960'S
4. ENGLISH JAIVAN CANNON INDIA
5. RUSSIAN ATOMIC MOBILE CANNON 1957 , 420MM
6. 30 POUNDER NAVAL CANNON READY TO FIRE
7. GERMAN DORA GUN SHELL 7100KG.
8. IRAQ ,SADAM'S SUPER GUN BEFORE COMPLEATION. BULLS LAST GUN.
RANGE 500 MILES.
9. VARIOUS 16TH CENTURY ARTILLERY
10. TSAR CANNON REAR VIEW
11. USS IOWA FIREING 16 IN. /41CM. GUNS, NOTE WHAT IT DOES TO THE SEA.
THE JAPANESE YAMATO CLASS BATTLESHIPS HAD NINE 18INCH/ 46CM. GUNS. I AM NOT SURE IF THAT IS THE LARGEST EVER USED ON A SHIP.

WITH THE ADVENT OF ROCKETS, MISSELS AND SUCH BIG GUNS ARE NO LONGER AS USEFUL BUT ARTILLERY STILL PLAYS A ROLE IN WARFARE ON A SMALLER SCALE.

[Andi]

Maybe not one of he largest in ever but uncertainly one of the most imressive at its times.

The Dardanelles Gun, a siege gun dating from soon after the fall of Constantinople in 1453. It is cast in bronze and was made in two parts: the barrel which holds the shot and the chamber which holds the charge. The two parts screw together gas tight. Overall length is 5.2 m and it weighs 16.8 tonnes. It fires a stone ball of about 300 kg some 1600 m. The rate of fire was very slow - about 15 rounds per day. Currently in the Royal Armouries at Fort Nelson, Portsmouth, England. A phantastic masterpiece of medieval engineering and metal casting.

http://www.royalarmouries.org/visit-...gle-object/196

[VANDOO]

WHILE SEARCHING FOR CAMEL GUNS I FOUND THESE SO INCLUDE THEM HERE. NOT TRULY BIG GUNS BUT I WOULD NOT WANT THEM SHOOTING AT ME.
#1. WW2 DESIGN FOR A RUSSIAN SUPER TANK
#2, & #3. FORTIFICATION UNIT FOR A GERMAN 50 MM. GUN.

[Pukka Bundook]

Andi,

The piece you show in post 15 above is a fantastic piece of engineering!!
How they cut the breech threads I do not know, but whoever did this work really knew his onions!

I think nowadays they would say it was impossible back then, but these craftsmen were brilliant. No other word for it!!

Thank you for posting.

Richard.

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Andi,

The piece you show in post 15 above is a fantastic piece of engineering!!
How they cut the breech threads I do not know, but whoever did this work really knew his onions!

I think nowadays they would say it was impossible back then, but these craftsmen were brilliant. No other word for it!!

Thank you for posting.

Richard.

We tend to forget that people were just as smart, clever, and creative in every era as we are today. When a problem arose they solved it.

[Pukka Bundook]

I agree entirely STT.

I have always been opposed to the "present overweening intellectual conceit", as Andrew Murray put it so well at the end of the 19th century!
I think if anything, people these days are getting thicker. :-)

Today we can push buttons, and often that's about it!
Gradfather said many years ago, holding out his hands, "In 20 years time, anyone that can use these will be at a premium".

I think he was right.
Years ago here, a chap had his big steam engine break the crank right at the throw;
Took it to the local welding shop in town, and the two brothers there forge -welded it back together. Took them a week.
When done, it was as right as it was before it broke and balanced perfectly.

Today they'd say That was impossible as well!!

And it stay'd fixed. didn't break again.
Please pardon OT. :-)

[corrado26]

Here an interesting vdeo of the biggest cannon ever built
corrado26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As3NzDQknVc

[Hotspur]

I would be remiss not to mention Gerald Bull, of the 20th century. I had first read of him in the 1960s when he suggested economical mortars using truck springs to hurl shells. Later on. he was involved with Iran and the Babylon projuct, which while never finished would have been along the lines of the old rail guns. i had read about the Krupp guns in one of the histories of the company and had the impression the first targets were against the French and targeting Paris from Belgian held rails.

Cheers

GC

http://www.thewednesdayreport.com/twr/Gerry_Bull.htm

[VANDOO]

A FEW MORE NOTABLE BIG GUNS. #1. 274MM. GERMAN HOWITZER WW2
#2. ATLANTIC WALL BATTERY GERMAN WITH CREW
#3, #4. & #5. AMERICAN 36 INCH, OR 910 MM. MORTAR TESTED BUT NEVER USED IN COMBAT ONE OF THE LARGEST CALIBER GUNS EVER. SHOWN LAYING DOWN IN LOADING POSITION AND UP IN FIRING POSITION AND WITH PROJECTILE AS IT SITS TODAY.
#6. THE RUSSIAN TSAR TANK 1915 FAILED ITS TRIALS AND BOGGED DOWN.
#7. & #8. A GERMAN SUPER TANK NAMED THE RATTE IT WAS NEVER PRODUCED EXCEPT AD PLANS AND MODEL;S BUT WOULD HAVE MOUNTED GUNS AS BIG AS THOSE ONLY USED ON BATTLESHIPS.
#9. THRU #12. THE GERMAN SUPER GUN HOCKDRUCKPUMPE AKA MILLIPEDE. THEY WERE INTENDED TO BE USED TO BOMBARD LONDON FROM FRANCE BUT WERE NEVER SUCCESSFUL AND THE COMPLEX WAS BOMBED AND DESTROYED BEFORE IT COULD BE USED. THE UNDERGROUND COMPLEX WAS ORIGINALLY PLANNED TO HAVE SETS OF 5 GUNS IN EACH LINE AND UP TO 50 GUNS (SEE DRAWING ). MAXIMUM FIRING RANGE WAS PLANNED TO BE 165 KM. THE BARREL WAS 150 METERS OR 490 FEET LONG AND FIRED A 150 MM FINNED PROJECTILE WEIGHING 310 LBS. WITH A 25 KILO EXPLOSIVE CHARGE. THE PROJECTILE INITIALLY FIRED WITH AN EXPLOSIVE BUT SOLID ROCKET FUEL BOOSTERS FIRED AS IT PASSED EACH JOINT INCREASING ITS VELOCITY. THE BARREL WAS NOT RIFLED TO CAUSE SPIN AND THE PROJECTILES FINS STABILIZED IT IN FLIGHT. #12 IS A PICTURE OF A PROJECTILE

[VANDOO]

#1 DETAIL OF THE SECTIONS OF THE V-3 SUPER GUN. SECTIONS COULD BE REPLACED WHEN NEEDED. THE IDEA FOR THIS TYPE OF GUN WAS DESIGNED IN FRANCE IN THE 1800'S AND VARIATIONS HAVE BEEN TRIED UP TO THE PRESENT IRAQ'S SUPER GUN BEING THE MOST RECENT I KNOW OF BUT IT IS LIKELY SOMEONE IS EXPERIMENTING WITH SUCH A GUN SOMEWHERE AT PRESENT.
#2. JUST FOR FUN SUPER SOLDIERS ? NO JUST A INFLATABLE TANK TO FOOL THE ENEMY, LOTS OF TRICKERY IN WAR SOMETIMES EVEN SOMETHING SIMPLE OR SEEMINGLY SILLY CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

[VANDOO]

i HAVEN'T REVISITED THIS POST IN A WHILE AND HAVE FOUND A FEW MORE INTERESTING BIG GUNS. I WAS SEARCHING TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST CANNON THE CHINESE EVER BUILT. IT WAS A SURPRISE TO FIND LITTLE INFORMATION EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE THE ONES WHO INVENTED THE CANNON. PERHAPS WE WILL RUN IT DOWN LATER.
#1. LARGE GUN SHELLS THE FIRST ONE IS 800 MM. GUSTAV SHELL WEIGHS 4600 KG. AND PRODUCES A CRATER 30 FEET DEEP X 30 FEET WIDE IN SOLID GROUND. TH.
#2 & #3. DORA GUN SHELLS ONE WW2 PICTURE AND ONE DIAGRAM.
#4. LOADING MACHINERY FOR BIG GERMAN GUN
#5. GERMAN 42 CM. GAMMA HOWITZER
#6. A WHIRLWIND CANNON
AT PRESENT I HAVE NO INFORMATION ON #6 BUT IT IS AN UNUSUAL CONTRAPTION.

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Barry for starting this thread. I was wondering how I could add these (and I have many more) recently taken at the Australian Armour and Artillery Museum, Cairns, Queensland, Australia. If you are ever in that part of the world, do not miss this HUGE collection! Included in the pics here, is a shell case from one of the railway guns shown in other pics of this thread.
Stu