"cleaned" blade

DhaDha · 28th June 2006, 11:16 PM

Here's a recent addition. I believe that's some gold detail on the blade. The gentleman that sold it to me said the blade had the original file marks. Might be a recent and perhaps tragic cleaning. If so, is there anything I can do to fix? Perhaps a polish?
Shawn

mross · 28th June 2006, 11:23 PM

Could you post some close ups of the blade? Also where are the "filemarks"? A
close up of them would also be of value.

Mark · 29th June 2006, 12:28 AM

File marks on the blade would not be unusual. It was not the practice to always bring a blade to a high polish, and often rough file or grinding marks are seen. You could leave them, or polish them out. Neither would be "unauthentic," but polishing them out would be changing the original state of the blade,

I would be interested in some close-ups to. It does not look like the sort of blade that would have gold koftgari, though. It is most often silver, sometimes with some copper details. Have you tried cleaning it with a solvent like paint thinner? It might be a yellow discoloration of a varnish or other coating on the blade. Then again, it might be gold.

DhaDha · 29th June 2006, 06:09 AM

Apologies. I'll post some better shots soon. There's some copper koftgari on the spine which I'll show for colour reference as well.

DhaDha · 30th June 2006, 07:07 PM

Here are some more pics. Unfortunately, with the same camera. Hopefully both the koftgari and "cleaned" blade are more visible. I assumed there was copper, silver and gold. I don't have any paint thinner on hand to try and see if there's a "golden" stain or varnish though.

katana · 30th June 2006, 09:08 PM

IMHO If the file marks are caused by the sharpening of the blade by the original ethnic owner, I believe it is part of its authentic history ......and perhaps should be left. However, if you believe that the file marks are much more recent ....then polish them out..... my 2 cents worth.....

Mark · 1st July 2006, 04:14 AM

Interesting. The photo of the side panel shows the figures a silver, and the background foliage yellowish - maybe it is gold. It would be a first for me if it were. I suppose brass is a possibility, but it doesn't look quite the right color for that, either. I am interested to hear the results of your cleaning.

I think the grind marks along the edge are due to "authentic" re-sharpening. they look to me to have been done with a whetstone & not with a file or grinding wheel. As I said, you could leave them or polish them down a bit, depending on whether or not you want it to be completely as found (or last used).

Its a very nice piece.

Ian · 2nd July 2006, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Interesting. The photo of the side panel shows the figures a silver, and the background foliage yellowish - maybe it is gold. It would be a first for me if it were. I suppose brass is a possibility, but it doesn't look quite the right color for that, either. I am interested to hear the results of your cleaning.

I think the grind marks along the edge are due to "authentic" re-sharpening. they look to me to have been done with a whetstone & not with a file or grinding wheel. As I said, you could leave them or polish them down a bit, depending on whether or not you want it to be completely as found (or last used).

Its a very nice piece.

I think the yellow material is almost certainly brass. Brass decoration is quite common on these swords. Gold would be very unusual and I don't see other signs of lavish decoration to complement such an expensive ornamentation.

The grind marks are likely to be from a stone, as Mark has said. These marks can be found on very well made dha, and do not detract from the piece in any way IMO. They are genuine signs of use within the culture and I am inclined to leave them unchanged.

ian.

PUFF · 2nd July 2006, 08:32 AM

Is this a Japanese-imitated version of Burmese Dha? The blade cross section is more or less diamond shape. Together with the hamon-like thing and japanese polishing attempt make me feel that way.
Nice blade, though

Battara · 2nd July 2006, 07:31 PM

Puff, this seems typical of dha blades. I agree with Ian on the overlay being brass instead of gold.

Mark · 2nd July 2006, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

Is this a Japanese-imitated version of Burmese Dha? The blade cross section is more or less diamond shape. Together with the hamon-like thing and japanese polishing attempt make me feel that way.
Nice blade, though

This is a typical cross-section for a Burmese blade. I have not seen any definite influence from Japanese blades on Burmese dha. There never was any significant Japanese presence in Burma, either by traders or settlers/mercenaries, as was the case in Thailand, where you do see Japanese katana blades re-fitted in Thai mountings and Japanese-style Thai blades (there is an equisite folded steel daab with guilded fittings and a damascus/watered blade in the Smithsonian American History Museum, which was a gift to the President - I forget which - from the King).

PUFF · 3rd July 2006, 09:12 AM

Thank you very much. I 'm not familiar with Burmese style. Siamese and Lanna blades rarely use diamond x-section, even in japanese imitated baldes.

DhaDha · 4th July 2006, 03:43 AM

I had thought that this style of blade from Burma was somehow related to Japanese swords. It seems to be closer to them than the dha/darb styles in the immediate surrounding area.

Could be wrong though. I keep finding out how little I know about Dhas and I certainly can't say I know anything about Japanese swords.

This one is smaller than the others I've seen. It came with a big brother though. A near copy, but larger. I was told that one of them was used by a female guard. I didn't/don't think it was possible at that time in Burma. Given the state of women's rights at the time. But maybe a female guarding another important female?...

Mark · 4th July 2006, 08:53 PM

They do seem to come in all sizes.

As for Japanese influence, everything I have found in my research shows that the dha/daab form developed completely independently of the Japanese katana. The resemblance really is quite superficial, if you compare them side-by-side. The dha has a very pronounced distal taper - the katana has very very little. This gives them very different points of balance. The tang of the dha is very short (2-4 inches), trianglular, and is not pinned, nor does it even go all the way through the handle - the katana has a long, wide tang almost the length of the handle, held by pins. Dha have a more acute cross-section (don't quite know how to describe it - widest at the spine, and tapering all the way to the edge), while the katana generally has a thicker blade, with the edge taper beginning further away from the spine. Dha handles have a round cross section, katana have an oval cross section.

I say "dha," but the same applies for Thai daab. In Thailand there was some stylistic influence, but it still was fairly superficial and limited. Katana blades were popular at one point, but this was centuries after the daab form had already developed. The period of strongest Japanese influence in Thailand was in the early 17th century, and it was short-lived. The Japanesese were largely expelled from the country by the mid-16th century, with China again becoming the pre-eminant trade partner.

If there is an external influence at all, and I find that sort of condescending - as if the Tai & Burmese could not come up with their own sword designs - it would be from Yunnan (southern China today). Given that the Tai (which includes the "Shan," Lao & Thai) originally came from the Yunnan area, it still isn't really proper to call this "influence," though my current guess is that the Tai styles did influence the Burmese somewhat.

DhaDha · 5th July 2006, 06:27 PM

Thank you, Mark. Ahh, still so much to learn.

28th June 2006, 11:16 PM	#1
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 165	"cleaned" blade Here's a recent addition. I believe that's some gold detail on the blade. The gentleman that sold it to me said the blade had the original file marks. Might be a recent and perhaps tragic cleaning. If so, is there anything I can do to fix? Perhaps a polish? Shawn Attached Images

30th June 2006, 07:07 PM	#5
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 165	Here are some more pics. Unfortunately, with the same camera. Hopefully both the koftgari and "cleaned" blade are more visible. I assumed there was copper, silver and gold. I don't have any paint thinner on hand to try and see if there's a "golden" stain or varnish though. Attached Images

28th June 2006, 11:23 PM	#2
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Could you post some close ups of the blade? Also where are the "filemarks"? A close up of them would also be of value.

29th June 2006, 12:28 AM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	File marks on the blade would not be unusual. It was not the practice to always bring a blade to a high polish, and often rough file or grinding marks are seen. You could leave them, or polish them out. Neither would be "unauthentic," but polishing them out would be changing the original state of the blade, I would be interested in some close-ups to. It does not look like the sort of blade that would have gold koftgari, though. It is most often silver, sometimes with some copper details. Have you tried cleaning it with a solvent like paint thinner? It might be a yellow discoloration of a varnish or other coating on the blade. Then again, it might be gold.

29th June 2006, 06:09 AM	#4
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 165	Apologies. I'll post some better shots soon. There's some copper koftgari on the spine which I'll show for colour reference as well.

30th June 2006, 09:08 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	IMHO If the file marks are caused by the sharpening of the blade by the original ethnic owner, I believe it is part of its authentic history ......and perhaps should be left. However, if you believe that the file marks are much more recent ....then polish them out..... my 2 cents worth.....

1st July 2006, 04:14 AM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Interesting. The photo of the side panel shows the figures a silver, and the background foliage yellowish - maybe it is gold. It would be a first for me if it were. I suppose brass is a possibility, but it doesn't look quite the right color for that, either. I am interested to hear the results of your cleaning. I think the grind marks along the edge are due to "authentic" re-sharpening. they look to me to have been done with a whetstone & not with a file or grinding wheel. As I said, you could leave them or polish them down a bit, depending on whether or not you want it to be completely as found (or last used). Its a very nice piece.

2nd July 2006, 08:32 AM	#9
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Is this a Japanese-imitated version of Burmese Dha? The blade cross section is more or less diamond shape. Together with the hamon-like thing and japanese polishing attempt make me feel that way. Nice blade, though

2nd July 2006, 07:31 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Puff, this seems typical of dha blades. I agree with Ian on the overlay being brass instead of gold.

3rd July 2006, 09:12 AM	#12
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Thank you very much. I 'm not familiar with Burmese style. Siamese and Lanna blades rarely use diamond x-section, even in japanese imitated baldes.

4th July 2006, 03:43 AM	#13
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 165	I had thought that this style of blade from Burma was somehow related to Japanese swords. It seems to be closer to them than the dha/darb styles in the immediate surrounding area. Could be wrong though. I keep finding out how little I know about Dhas and I certainly can't say I know anything about Japanese swords. This one is smaller than the others I've seen. It came with a big brother though. A near copy, but larger. I was told that one of them was used by a female guard. I didn't/don't think it was possible at that time in Burma. Given the state of women's rights at the time. But maybe a female guarding another important female?...

4th July 2006, 08:53 PM	#14
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	They do seem to come in all sizes. As for Japanese influence, everything I have found in my research shows that the dha/daab form developed completely independently of the Japanese katana. The resemblance really is quite superficial, if you compare them side-by-side. The dha has a very pronounced distal taper - the katana has very very little. This gives them very different points of balance. The tang of the dha is very short (2-4 inches), trianglular, and is not pinned, nor does it even go all the way through the handle - the katana has a long, wide tang almost the length of the handle, held by pins. Dha have a more acute cross-section (don't quite know how to describe it - widest at the spine, and tapering all the way to the edge), while the katana generally has a thicker blade, with the edge taper beginning further away from the spine. Dha handles have a round cross section, katana have an oval cross section. I say "dha," but the same applies for Thai daab. In Thailand there was some stylistic influence, but it still was fairly superficial and limited. Katana blades were popular at one point, but this was centuries after the daab form had already developed. The period of strongest Japanese influence in Thailand was in the early 17th century, and it was short-lived. The Japanesese were largely expelled from the country by the mid-16th century, with China again becoming the pre-eminant trade partner. If there is an external influence at all, and I find that sort of condescending - as if the Tai & Burmese could not come up with their own sword designs - it would be from Yunnan (southern China today). Given that the Tai (which includes the "Shan," Lao & Thai) originally came from the Yunnan area, it still isn't really proper to call this "influence," though my current guess is that the Tai styles did influence the Burmese somewhat.

5th July 2006, 06:27 PM	#15
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 165	Thank you, Mark. Ahh, still so much to learn.