Is it Raja Gundala?

[brekele]

Hi Gentlemen, today is my first day to put my post.
Few months ago I bought a keris blade in Lombok Island (without warangka).
Im very surprice because I saw grain of pamor look like flying bird.
Now, my questions is this keris blade Raja Gundala?

my camera is not so good but i tried hard to make pics clearly.
thanks for your opinion.

[A. G. Maisey]

'Tis in the eye of the beholder.

If you can see it, its there.

[brekele]

Hi there All, here are more pics.
Waiting for opinions from all of you for me to learn about my collections.
Thanks Maisey also you GUYS all.

[cahaya]

Goods+nice warangka

[David]

Originally Posted by cahaya

Goods+nice warangka

Yes, this wood is very beautiful indeed!
As for you original question, as Alan suggested, it is all in the eye of the beholder. I generally have a pretty good imagination for this sort of thing, but personally i don't see it here. Still, if it is clear to you then i would say it is raja gundala for you.

[brekele]

Thanks CAHAYA, but warangka stil need to repair because there are small holes.

Thanks David, today is first day my keris sold to USA (beside handle) and I'm stil hoping and waiting long line I guess to get feedback.hhmm
Maybe my keris is not Raja Gundala yet.
Once again, Thanks for support to learn something in your forum. (ENGLISH + ARTIFACT).

[drdavid]

Hi Brekele
I dont quite see a bird, it looks more like a turtle to me. As Alan said ...in the eyes of the beholder. Nice piece in any case
cheers
DrD

[brekele]

hhmmm ....Hi DRD, I have a good friend here in Germany. He is a computer's freak. I guess he can help me to show you a line of flying bird on this keris.

But anyway, Who is Alan? Is he dangdut's singer? (I like dangdut).
Sorry Alan, wherever you are. Because some guys keep writing me your name in my subject forum.....and I STIL DONT KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
Please, don't be angry will you?

Hi DRD, Maisey is same as ALAN right?
GUYS, I'm just new member in this forum.
(some name are mixed up, ALAM...ALAN.....ETC).
But Lelang is one of my favourit name. Because this name is familiar to me

[David]

Originally Posted by brekele

But anyway, Who is Alan? Is he dangdut's singer? (I like dangdut).
Sorry Alan, wherever you are. Because some guys keep writing me your name in my subject forum.....and I STIL DONT KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
Please, don't be angry will you?

Sorry Brekele...yes, Alan is A.G. Maisey...sorry for the confusion.
A dangdut singer...now that is funny!

[brekele]

Hi Alan, sorry oke?

[brekele]

hi drdavid, here is new added picture.

[David]

Thanks for the outline. Personally it's a bit of a stretch for me and in my hands i wouldn't consider this an example of raja gundala , but as has been already stated, if you see it then it is there for you. I possibly have examples in my collection that i consider to be raja gundala that you not see representational images in at all. Those images will still always be there for me.

[A. G. Maisey]

No, not dangdut.

During my youth a weekend danceband trumpet player, and then later a flautist, but never dangdut.

Dangdut has a certain novelty value, and maybe the first 3000 times you hear dangdut it might appeal---marginally. But I suspect that it has been specifically formulated to kill brain cells. Lots of empirical evidence for this.

As to who I am. That probably depends upon who the other person is. To some people, I'm their worst nightmare come true, to others I'm Gentle Ben.Totally situational Brekele.In any case, no offence taken; you can address me as Alan if you wish, or Maisey, if you wish, but in my social circle, address by the family name without title is usually reserved for people who have known one another for a very extended period of time, or professionally.

[drdavid]

Hi Brekele
here is the turtle I see, enjoy the keris.

[brekele]

Hi Alan, nice to hear from you again, yes..since now I address you as Alan, just same as other guys to address you.

Hi drdavid, thanks for your drawing line, even your added line on the picture is a bit too much on neck,hand..etc.
Now, It's look more like a JUMP DOWN KANGGAROOTLE'S HEAD. But It's oke.
Because I knew you come from place where those kanggaroos came from.
(Hi Alan, I like your words....in the eyes of the beholder ).


Hi David, also thanks for your comment.

[brekele]

Hi Guys, I got informations from Indo that this blade had dapur sinom robyong.
Is there any idea maybe for making this blade look better, I mean about material
for warangka and handle. Any comment is welcome.
Hi Dave, how are you today?

[brekele]

Hi Guys, sorry for pics. now i tried to make it better.
there is a bit problem with warangka because many of them here.
again, is there any idea to change the warangka and handle?
OR just any comment about this keris?
The keris is straight blade and ada ada in the middle luk's shape.
Is it rare?
THANKS

HI DAVID, Thank you for your information about who Alan is.
I hope is not too late.
I tried to delete my bad pictures before but I dont know how
Dave, just teenie boy who tried to learn PC, I hope you understand. Any info Dave?
Thanks

[Pangeran Datu]

Hi all,

I just had a look at the second lot of pix. IMVHO, even with its wavy spine, I would call it: Sinom Wora Wari, or, at a pinch, Sinom Wora Wari Robyong ( to take into account the Greneng). I could go overboard, and call it: Sinom Wora Wari Robyong Palawija.

Just my opinion.

Cheers.

[A. G. Maisey]

When we attempt to affix a specific dhapur name to a blade form, what we are doing is identifying the features of a blade and comparing that assembly of features to the features specified in a recognised pakem. If the features coincide exactly with those laid down in the pakem for a particular dhapur, then we can say that the blade in question is of such and such a dhapur, in accordance with such and such a pakem.

Most pakems are Javanese, and are only applicable to Javanese blade forms.

It is not correct to apply a Javanese pakem to a Lombok blade, and then give that Lombok blade a designation intended for a Javanese blade.

Nor is it correct to invent our own dhapur names.

To give this Lombok blade a correct dhapur name we would need to use a Lombok pakem. In fact, I believe that in respect of Lombok keris we might be more correct to refer to the blade form as "bentuk", or "angun-angunan", rather than as "dhapur".

The only Lombok pakem I have available is the one provided by Djelenga, and that does not list sinom robyong.

The entire field of dhapur is very, very difficult. If one wishes to define a blade form it is perhaps better to name the features (ricikan), rather than to provide a dhapur name.

[brekele]

Hi Alan, Thanks for your long words and also for Pangeran Datu.
(It takes me 2 hours to open a dictionary to understand it).

I remembered conversations with a friend in Lombok.
And He told me that most of OLD KERISES in Lombok are came/made from JAWA.
And I think, I believed it....because there is no BESALEN (I have no see till now)
in Lombok that can proof those Kerises was made in Lombok.
SO, I guess ....It is oke to jugde "DAPUR" also for Lombok's kerises instead of "Bentuk or Anggun-anggunan" only. Is it right Guys?
(Alan, It's only my opinion, I'm not even junior high school yet for this subject!
and I guess you are already in university same as Alam,David,P.Datu and more other Guys and even soon you became a Doctor's Keris, he...he...he.. )

BTW, I heard about a book from Djelenga. (hard to fine)
I wish to have this book to learn more about Lombok's keris.
Hi Alan, Is it teenie boy's budget can reach price of this book?
Thanks.

[David]

Brekele, i would not place myself in Keris University just yet. I tend to think of myself as being more in High School as well when it comes to these studies.
It has been my understanding that many "Old Kerises" in Lombok were more likely to originate in Bali which ruled over and influenced Lombok for many years. Not to say that a Javanese keris could not appear there as well. But i suspect that this last keris you have shown is neither very old, nor from Lombak, Bali or Jawa. I could be wrong, but i suspect it is a more recent Madurese creation made in the style of a Bali/Lombak keris. Since it is made in that style i think you have dressed it correctly, but i would agree with Alan that Javanese Dhapurs would not apply.

[A. G. Maisey]

Lombok was settled by various groups of people, from various different places.

The original people in Lombok are the Sasaks, who are Muslim, and their keris forms reflect a Javanese origin.

Bali had colonies on and control of Lombok for extended periods of time, and the people of Balinese origin who lived (and live ) in Lombok use keris forms that reflect their origins.

Bugis keris forms are also found in Lombok , and there are groups of people in Lombok who identify themselves as of Bugis origin.

In fact, there is no distinctive "Lombok" style of keris.However, the keris styles favoured by the Sasak people often tend to be extreme. The ricikan will be emphasised by high relief work, and in other than very high quality blades, it would be judged to be crude and "kasar" by traditional Javanese or Balinese standards. More like folk art than high art.

Keris blade production had ceased in Lombok prior to the end of the 19th century.

Yes, many old keris in Lombok would have originally come from Jawa, and this is true of old keris distributed throughout South East Asia. Back in Majapahit times, and through to probably as late as the end of the 18th century, Jawa exported blades of keris, swords, spears all over South East Asia, and even as far afield as Sri Lanka, and Southern India.

However, strictly, it is incorrect to describe a blade in the context of one culture, in this case Lombok, in terms constructed to apply to a blade in a different cultural context. For one thing, it is meaningless. In a Javanese blade the words used to describe the blade have a meaning to a Javanese person. They may have no meaning, or a different meaning, in a different language.

Djelenga uses as a synonym of "dhapur" the words "bentuk" which means "shape" in Indonesian, and "angun-angunan" which is a word in Javanese, but does not make sense when used as Djelenga uses it, so obviously has a different meaning in Lombok.Since Djelenga is from Lombok, I believe he would know the correct terms to use for a Lombok keris, and he seems to demonstrate that "dhapur" is not to be used instead of "bentuk" or "angun-angunan".

In 1994 the book "Keris (di) Lombok" was written by Ir. H. Lalu Djelenga. It was sponsored by Taman Mini Indonesia in Jakarta, and was never produced commercially but given as a souvenir to certain select people.I have a photo-copy of this book.

In 2000 Lalu Djelenga released an expanded and updated version of the 1994 book. This was a small local printing and was not ---as far as I know--- distributed through the book-seller distribution network. To obtain a copy it was a matter of who you knew. It took me years to get hold of a copy of this book.My most recent information is that stocks of this book are now exhausted.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... In 2000 Lalu Djelenga released an expanded and updated version of the 1994 book. This was a small local printing and was not ---as far as I know--- distributed through the book-seller distribution network. To obtain a copy it was a matter of who you knew. It took me years to get hold of a copy of this book.My most recent information is that stocks of this book are now exhausted.

I'm still looking, for about 2 years now.

[Mick]

There is one other keris book which is probably even harder to get then Djelenga's. That is "Keris Bali" by I B. Dibia. The content and material may not be as good as Djelenga's, but it is writen in Bahasa. English and French. Alas I only have a photocopy of this one just as I have of the 1993 Djelenga book.

The published (2000) edition of Djelenga's is much more complete than the original, but it uses what looks to be color xerox's as the basis for the photos. A trait which I wish they had gone a step beyond.

Haryono Haryoguritno's big book is the highest quality production that I have ever heard of in regard to the keris. It might even exceed the quality of the production on the "Kraton Surakarta" to a small degree.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Mick

... Haryono Haryoguritno's big book is the highest quality production that I have ever heard of in regard to the keris. It might even exceed the quality of the production on the "Kraton Surakarta" to a small degree.

Paper and printing quality are similar, but Haryono's book have better photography, graphics and artwork.

[Marcokeris]

I'm not shure, but mybe is possible to order Dibia's "Keris Bali" in the little bookshop "Ganesha" in Ubud (Bali)
Look at " www.ganeshabookbali.com "

[Marcokeris]

Sorry: " www.ganeshabooksbali.com"

[Mick]

Marcokeris

I can't get that page to come up in my explorer program.

Scratch this. I got it after a couple of tries.

Thanks

Mick


Just placed an order. We'll see if is in stock when they reply.

Thanks again.

Mick


Just got an out of stock message.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah Mick, you're right:- the quality of production of Keris Lombok is less than good. However, it was obviously done on a shoe-string budget, and there is some good info in it. All things considered I personally am not prepared to criticise Keris Lombok too severely for failing to be an artwork in itself.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

......
However, strictly, it is incorrect to describe a blade in the context of one culture, in this case Lombok, in terms constructed to apply to a blade in a different cultural context. For one thing, it is meaningless. In a Javanese blade the words used to describe the blade have a meaning to a Javanese person. They may have no meaning, or a different meaning, in a different language.......

It depends.
If, say, 'Culture B' originally produced blades in strict accordance with the Pakem/protocol of 'Culture A' and adopted it as their own, then, no problem. One can use the Pakem of 'Culture A' on blades made by 'Culture B', as Pakem A will be identical to Pakem B
If, however, through time, either Pakem A, or Pakem B, or both evolve or change altogether, with respect to one another, then we strike trouble.
One first needs to be able to decide which Pakem has changed (or, indeed, if BOTH have changed). Then one may be able to proceed with some 'historical forensics' to determine the current relativity of one Pakem to the other.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

......
Djelenga uses as a synonym of "dhapur" the words "bentuk" which means "shape" in Indonesian, and "angun-angunan" which is a word in Javanese, but does not make sense when used as Djelenga uses it, so obviously has a different meaning in Lombok.Since Djelenga is from Lombok, I believe he would know the correct terms to use for a Lombok keris, and he seems to demonstrate that "dhapur" is not to be used instead of "bentuk" or "angun-angunan".....

My understanding of the ancient (in your case, Jawa Kuna?) meanings:

Dapur = group/family/tree
Bentuk = shape/form/appearance
Angun-angunan = pattern/template

Given the ancients' pliant nature and penchant for symbolism , I can understand how the above terms may be used interchangeably for general classification (cf. biological taxonomy).

Cheers.