A Keris for slashing...

mrwizard · 22nd May 2011, 04:43 PM

I just received this keris with rather unusual (or at least unusual for me) fittings. The hilt has been elongated with a piece, so that it can be gripped like a sword sabre.
Blade length is 36cm (14.2'') and build rather robust compared to most other keris i have handled (which actually doesn't mean much

).
Unfortunately, it looks like someone couldn't resist the urge to slash at something an damaged the blade.

Despite those nasty breakouts and some surface-rust the blade is in a remarkably good condition.

I bought it from a descendant of a german noble family. The seller rediscovered it 20 years ago in a closet at the family homestead and (until i told him that it is a keris) assumed it was a custom made short sword for one of his ancestors.
Good thing about nobility is that they tend to keep track of their ancestors, so it was rather easy to find out that one of his ancestors held a command at Batavia in the first half of 19th century. Descendants of this officer lived (or maybe still live) in Padang.

With any luck this could be a 19th century blade that still has its original fittings.

Comments are welcome. Especially on the "mendak" thing

Best Regards,
Thilo

Best Regards

Sajen · 22nd May 2011, 05:25 PM

Hello Thilo,

really funny ensemble you got there. Keris and sheath seems to be from Peninsula with refitted hilt somewhere in Indonesia, most proable Java since it is a javanese hilt from Central Java. When you want to restore it you need to carve a new buntut for the sheath and infix a adequate piece of wood under the crosspiece. A fitting handle and pendokok would be necessary as well....
A lot of work for a demaged blade IMHO.
Others with a lot more knowledge will tell you more.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 22nd May 2011, 05:28 PM

I think that the keris have to look like one of the shown examples in this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11474

mrwizard · 22nd May 2011, 05:52 PM

Hello Detlef,

Thank you for your comments and the restoration advice.

I don't plan to completely remodel this keris. IMHO this would strip the individual character that made me buy it in the first place. Somehow i like those partially broken or imperfect pieces.

My plan was to clean the blade but leave the overall ensemble untouched. Well... maybe i will try to carve a replacement buntut to make it a little more "displayable".

Best Regards,
Thilo

David · 22nd May 2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Hello Detlef,

Thank you for your comments and the restoration advice.

I don't plan to completely remodel this keris. IMHO this would strip the individual character that made me buy it in the first place. Somehow i like those partially broken or imperfect pieces.

My plan was to clean the blade but leave the overall ensemble untouched. Well... maybe i will try to carve a replacement buntut to make it a little more "displayable".

Best Regards,
Thilo

Thilo, i don't know how or why thos keris ended up in this crazy configuration, but there is nothing very "right" about the dress. The added piece makes no sense is is aesthetically incorrect for any keris that i know off. As has been pointed out, the hilt is from Jawa, the sheath probably peninsula, the piece in between is not correct for either location. The hilt is also facing backwards.
You could go a long way in improving the appearance of this piece simply by removing the odd piece between the hilt and the blade and turning the hilt around to the opposite orientation.

Interesting blade that has a few uncommon features on it such as the "squared" off front edge of the gandik and the triangular shape of the sogokan.

Gustav · 22nd May 2011, 08:29 PM

I would probably leave it as it is. There are some such utilized/adjusted keris blades in Europa, and this is by far not the strangest combo.

The main problem is, when this piece between hilt and blade was added, the sides of gonjo and protruding parts of sorsoran were filed down to fit it with this joint-piece, so the blade is flat now. If you will try to get it in it's "original" state again (without this joint piece, proper hilt, pendokok), you will end with a strange, mutilated blade.

Now we see, WHY it is mutilated, we have a historical context, and this is the most valuable thing regarding this blade.

Sajen · 22nd May 2011, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

The main problem is, when this piece between hilt and blade was added, the sides of gonjo and protruding parts of sorsoran were filed down to fit it with this joint-piece, so the blade is flat now.

Hello Gustav,

you are sure that it is like this? Maybe Thilo can give some light to this. How fit the blade inside the sheath? Is there any space between sheath and blade?

And I am not sure that this is a european combo, I have seen very weird combos in Indonesia as well.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav · 22nd May 2011, 09:25 PM

Detlef, I wasn't saying this is an european combo.

Sajen · 22nd May 2011, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Detlef, I wasn't saying this is an european combo.

Hello Gustav,

sorry, I read this part to fast!

Regards,

Detlef

mrwizard · 22nd May 2011, 10:08 PM

Sure, from a Keris perspective the current "hilt configuration" is completely wrong. But assumed
this Keris has been modified by a person with an European background for personal use, all those modifications make sense. The backwards facing hilt allows slashes and cuts with the convex curve of the blade. And the the wooden piece between the original hilt provides a secure european sabre like grip. The conical shape prevents the hand from slipping over the blade during powerful trusts.
The thing, how offensive it may look to a keris collector, has a historic context like Gustav has pointed out. And this makes it interesting for me

But good to hear that the keris-blade itself has some uncommon features, make it even more interesting

And i am also happy to anounce that the modification have been very gently to the original keris. Nothing seems to be filed off, neither from the blade nor from the sheath.

Anyway, i'm still struggling getting the hilt off using the candle-method described by Alan in another thread. Assessing my progress so far this may take quite a while...

Best Regards,
Thilo

Gustav · 22nd May 2011, 10:43 PM

"And i am also happy to anounce that the modification have been very gently to the original keris. Nothing seems to be filed off, neither from the blade nor from the sheath."

?

mrwizard · 22nd May 2011, 10:54 PM

Hello Gustav,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

The main problem is, when this piece between hilt and blade was added, the sides of gonjo and protruding parts of sorsoran were filed down to fit it with this joint-piece, so the blade is flat now.

I was referring to this sentence of your post. The keris blade is untouched. The joint-piece was made to fit the keris and not vice versa.

Best Regards,
Thilo

Sajen · 22nd May 2011, 11:12 PM

I know what Gustav mean, the blade look in the sorsoran area very very weird so you can think that it is modified. I guess that it is a Peninsula blade so my hope is that Kai Wee see this thread and can tell us something about this blade.
When Thilo has opened the hilt it would be good when he post again some pictures to get a better view from the blade.

Regards,

Detlef

asomotif · 22nd May 2011, 11:25 PM

Hello Thilo,

I can go a long way with your theory about modification for use in a western slashing style. If the original owner was stationed in Batavia I can imagine that he had it modificated there, explaining the handle.
I agree in keeping the piece in its present configuration considering its history.
Maybe indeed add a buntut and cleaning /oiling the blade.

I hope that maybe other forumites can comment on the blade ?
Are there any age indications for this blade ?

Best regards,
Willem

Gustav · 22nd May 2011, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Hello Gustav,

I was referring to this sentence of your post. The keris blade is untouched. The joint-piece was made to fit the keris and not vice versa.

Best Regards,
Thilo

Thilo,

at some time the blade is most probably reworked, gonjo and parts of sorsoran being flattened.

And it would be much more difficult to fit such a joint piece to a gonjo with rounded sides then to one with flat sides, as this joint piece is going over gonjo.

This is, why I think, there would be some coincidence between these two facts. This is only an oppinion.

Best regards,
Gustav

Gustav · 22nd May 2011, 11:39 PM

I am also interested in this kind of blades with multiple sogokan/srawejan/kruwingan. As I understand some of them are attributed to Sumbawa (post #19 and #49 in this thread:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=kalawija), yet it probably is possible, such blades are occuring in central Sumatra or even Peninsula.

By the way, it seems there is a possibility this blade is having pamor.

The sheath is Peninsular.

mrwizard · 23rd May 2011, 12:40 AM

Hello Gustav,

Thanks for the pointers to Sumbawa. I will look further into it tomorrow.

The keris has a pamor, but it is barely visible in its current state (certainly not on the pictures i took).

I think your impression that gonjo and sorsoran are flattened are due to my poor photographic skills. I will try to make better pictures as soon as i get that hilt off

Meanwhile i tried the good old pencil method.

Best Regards,
Thilo

mrwizard · 29th May 2011, 04:53 PM

Here are some updates.
After several heating sessions, i finally got the hilt off.
Sadly, the heating and twisting was too much for the wooden crosspiece. At least the split is very clean so it can easily be glued.

As can be seen on the smaller picture, the "javanese part" of the hilt is filled with terra-cotta. The pesi was wrapped with a composite of resin and some fibrous material (similar to hemp).

Best Regards,
Thilo

David · 29th May 2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Here are some updates.
After several heating sessions, i finally got the hilt off.
Sadly, the heating and twisting was too much for the wooden crosspiece.

I don't know Thilo, doesn't seem like such a sad thing to me.

Now you can move forward towards a more "correct" dress for this blade. Frankly i wouldn't make use of the Javanese hilt that remains either since this clearly is not a Javanese blade. Some of our friends in Malaysia might be able to help here, but my guess is that this is a Peninsula blade. Perhaps you need a nice Jawa Demam hilt for this.
Also i've been meaning to add, and this is probably obvious to most, that while someone may have done damage to this blade while slashing with it, the keris is not a slashing weapon, so this was never intended to be a "keris for slashing"...

mrwizard · 29th May 2011, 08:28 PM

Hello David,

I already expected that someone would use this opportunity to push me again in the direction of dressing this keris properly

But there might be a problem doing this. The pesi of this keris is 113mm (4.4'') long. This might be the actual reason why the wooden piece was added in the first place. Finding a proper hilt (or a very large mendak) of this size might take a while...
Until then the keris will keep its silly and well worn dress

Of course, i'm well aware that a keris is not a slashing weapon. But the fittings and the weight of this keris almost encourage everyone who holds it in his hand to slash at something. And obviously someone did...

The title "a keris for slashing" was meant as a pun (slashing instead of sharing).

Best Regards,
Thilo

David · 29th May 2011, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Hello David,

I already expected that someone would use this opportunity to push me again in the direction of dressing this keris properly

But there might be a problem doing this. The pesi of this keris is 113mm (4.4'') long. This might be the actual reason why the wooden piece was added in the first place. Finding a proper hilt (or a very large mendak) of this size might take a while...
Until then the keris will keep its silly and well worn dress

Of course, i'm well aware that a keris is not a slashing weapon. But the fittings and the weight of this keris almost encourage everyone who holds it in his hand to slash at something. And obviously someone did...

The title "a keris for slashing" was meant as a pun (slashing instead of sharing).

Wow, that is a rather long pesi. It is, in fact, unlikely that you will find a Jawa Demam that would fit on such a long tang. Again, perhaps some of our Malaysian collectors have a viable option.
Frankly i'm not trying to push you in any particular direction. It's your keris to be dress how ever you see fit. But i am fairly certain that it was never intended to have a hilt set up like this no matter how long the pesi is and i would image it was probably devised by a colonial rather than a native.
I brought up the slashing not so much because of your title, but because mention of slashing with this keris was also repeated later in the thread. I'm not convinced that the edge damage was done by slashing, though it is possible. Even with the added piece i would think that slashing would do more damage to the pesi than the edge.

asomotif · 1st June 2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Until then the keris will keep its silly and well worn dress

Hear hear !!!

Alam Shah · 2nd June 2011, 11:07 AM

Hi, looking at the blade (including the tang), I feel that it is most likely from Sumbawa. The blade form in general can be found along Sumatra and along the Straits of Malacca and Sumbawa. I've seen example of this form in what seems to be authentic fitting dress. How this piece gets its current fittings, I've no idea, although other members had presented with some nice ones..

What makes me think its probably Sumbawa are.. the indicators from the blade base area, includes the awkward form at the gandik area, the sogokan, the greneng area and the long tang. The blade doesn't fit that well in the sheath. The mouth where the kembang kacang (belalai gajah) is, needed to be made bigger to accommodate the blade to fit the sheath (post #10).

David · 2nd June 2011, 03:03 PM

Here is an interesting thread on Sumbawa keris. If indeed it turns out that this keris is from there it might give you some ideas.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=1&pp=30

Gustav · 2nd June 2011, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Here is an interesting thread on Sumbawa keris. If indeed it turns out that this keris is from there it might give you some ideas.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=1&pp=30

David, perhaps you missed it, yet I already posted a link to this thread in #16.

David · 2nd June 2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, perhaps you missed it, yet I already posted a link to this thread in #16.

Yes, i did miss that Gustav.

So you also suspect a Sumbawa origin then...

mrwizard · 2nd June 2011, 10:03 PM

Hello everyone,

Yes, the keris looks a lot like the Sumbawa types shown in the thread referenced twice. And the pictures in post #1 show how i can hide the damage to the sheath.

But, regarding the historic background of whom i got this keris, i suspect (the also mentioned) central sumatra to be more likely the point of origin. As i have written in the first post, the family i got it from had relatives in Padang. Further research revealed that they moved there before 1831 (first recorded birth) and lived there for at least the next 120 years (last recorded death 1949).
Of course, considering that both Padang and Batavia where important harbours, the keris can still come from Sumbawa or from the Peninsula.

@Alam Sha
Yes, on the photo it might look like that, but the kembang kacang area fits sheath nicely. It just doesn't get fully in because the Warangka is not cut deep enough. The gonjo stands out 5mm to accomodate the strange wooden hilt piece. Therefore, i suspect that the sheath has been made for exactly these fittings.
Since you have seen similar keris with such a long tang. What did the dress look like? Did they have overly large hilts or large mendaks?

Edit: Ooops sorry, Gustav just pointed out in PM that the referenced thread already has some examples of keris with very long pendokok (e.g. post #51) and examples that would accomodate very long pesi (#52 ).

Best Regards,
Thilo

David · 3rd June 2011, 01:54 AM

Well Sumatra is perhaps the origin of the sheath, but i doubt that the blade itself originated there.
I just noticed from the close-up in post #18 that it seems to have a pamor wengkon. It will be very nice to see the blade cleaned and stained so that we can see this pamor stand out.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd June 2011, 02:07 AM

I understand that for many who read what I will now write, I am close to uttering sacrilege, but the simple fact of the matter is this:-

for low quality blades produced as market commodities, as opposed to bespoke blades produced by an mpu for a specific person, the length of the pesi was not set at time of making:- it finished up as it finished up. It was expected that the buyer of the blade would trim the length of the pesi to suit the hilt.

Don't forget this:- many ready made blades were sold to people who made their own dress, they were not necessarily dressed by a specialist craftsman, nor were they dressed according to some esoteric belief that the pesi contained the spirit of the blade, to my knowledge, only a certain segment of present day keris collectors and mystics hold this belief.

There was no bar to the trimming of a pesi in a ready made keris in order that it would fit the hilt.

The same holds true today:- very often the pesi on mid to low quality present day keris will be far too long for the hilt, so the mranggi trims the pesi to the correct length. In a Surakarta keris this length is +/- 7cm measured from the top of the blade, not the top of the gonjo.

Sometimes we find a Javanese blade in Bugis dress. To fit the Bugis hilt the pesi is invariably shortened, and sometimes bent.

It is OK to dream about what is so and what is not so, but the people who actually make, maintain and use keris have not in the past, and do not now, necessarily subscribe to the same dreams that are held by many of the people who collect them.

mrwizard · 3rd June 2011, 11:18 AM

@David
Quite possible that it is indeed from Sumbawa, the real story behind this keris is most likely lost in time.
The keris is currently enjoying an extended bath in pineapple juice. I guess one or two more days and it will be clean. I will certainly post pictures when its ready

@Alan
Thank you. That is indeed an interesting bit of information. I was aware that keris are frequently modified to increase market value and that damaged keris are repaired. But otherwise i thought that except cleaning and restaining the keris had to be left untouched.

Best Regards,
Thilo

22nd May 2011, 08:29 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	I would probably leave it as it is. There are some such utilized/adjusted keris blades in Europa, and this is by far not the strangest combo. The main problem is, when this piece between hilt and blade was added, the sides of gonjo and protruding parts of sorsoran were filed down to fit it with this joint-piece, so the blade is flat now. If you will try to get it in it's "original" state again (without this joint piece, proper hilt, pendokok), you will end with a strange, mutilated blade. Now we see, WHY it is mutilated, we have a historical context, and this is the most valuable thing regarding this blade. Last edited by Gustav; 22nd May 2011 at 11:49 PM.

23rd May 2011, 12:40 AM	#17
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Hello Gustav, Thanks for the pointers to Sumbawa. I will look further into it tomorrow. The keris has a pamor, but it is barely visible in its current state (certainly not on the pictures i took). I think your impression that gonjo and sorsoran are flattened are due to my poor photographic skills. I will try to make better pictures as soon as i get that hilt off Meanwhile i tried the good old pencil method. Best Regards, Thilo Attached Images

2nd June 2011, 10:03 PM	#27
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Hello everyone, Yes, the keris looks a lot like the Sumbawa types shown in the thread referenced twice. And the pictures in post #1 show how i can hide the damage to the sheath. But, regarding the historic background of whom i got this keris, i suspect (the also mentioned) central sumatra to be more likely the point of origin. As i have written in the first post, the family i got it from had relatives in Padang. Further research revealed that they moved there before 1831 (first recorded birth) and lived there for at least the next 120 years (last recorded death 1949). Of course, considering that both Padang and Batavia where important harbours, the keris can still come from Sumbawa or from the Peninsula. @Alam Sha Yes, on the photo it might look like that, but the kembang kacang area fits sheath nicely. It just doesn't get fully in because the Warangka is not cut deep enough. The gonjo stands out 5mm to accomodate the strange wooden hilt piece. Therefore, i suspect that the sheath has been made for exactly these fittings. Since you have seen similar keris with such a long tang. What did the dress look like? Did they have overly large hilts or large mendaks? Edit: Ooops sorry, Gustav just pointed out in PM that the referenced thread already has some examples of keris with very long pendokok (e.g. post #51) and examples that would accomodate very long pesi (#52 ). Best Regards, Thilo Attached Images Last edited by mrwizard; 2nd June 2011 at 11:31 PM.

22nd May 2011, 04:43 PM	#1
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	A Keris for slashing... I just received this keris with rather unusual (or at least unusual for me) fittings. The hilt has been elongated with a piece, so that it can be gripped like a sword sabre. Blade length is 36cm (14.2'') and build rather robust compared to most other keris i have handled (which actually doesn't mean much ). Unfortunately, it looks like someone couldn't resist the urge to slash at something an damaged the blade. Despite those nasty breakouts and some surface-rust the blade is in a remarkably good condition. I bought it from a descendant of a german noble family. The seller rediscovered it 20 years ago in a closet at the family homestead and (until i told him that it is a keris) assumed it was a custom made short sword for one of his ancestors. Good thing about nobility is that they tend to keep track of their ancestors, so it was rather easy to find out that one of his ancestors held a command at Batavia in the first half of 19th century. Descendants of this officer lived (or maybe still live) in Padang. With any luck this could be a 19th century blade that still has its original fittings. Comments are welcome. Especially on the "mendak" thing Best Regards, Thilo Best Regards Attached Images

22nd May 2011, 05:25 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,775	Hello Thilo, really funny ensemble you got there. Keris and sheath seems to be from Peninsula with refitted hilt somewhere in Indonesia, most proable Java since it is a javanese hilt from Central Java. When you want to restore it you need to carve a new buntut for the sheath and infix a adequate piece of wood under the crosspiece. A fitting handle and pendokok would be necessary as well.... A lot of work for a demaged blade IMHO. Others with a lot more knowledge will tell you more. Regards, Detlef

22nd May 2011, 05:28 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,775	I think that the keris have to look like one of the shown examples in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11474

22nd May 2011, 05:52 PM	#4
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Hello Detlef, Thank you for your comments and the restoration advice. I don't plan to completely remodel this keris. IMHO this would strip the individual character that made me buy it in the first place. Somehow i like those partially broken or imperfect pieces. My plan was to clean the blade but leave the overall ensemble untouched. Well... maybe i will try to carve a replacement buntut to make it a little more "displayable". Best Regards, Thilo

22nd May 2011, 09:25 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Detlef, I wasn't saying this is an european combo.

22nd May 2011, 10:08 PM	#10
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Sure, from a Keris perspective the current "hilt configuration" is completely wrong. But assumed this Keris has been modified by a person with an European background for personal use, all those modifications make sense. The backwards facing hilt allows slashes and cuts with the convex curve of the blade. And the the wooden piece between the original hilt provides a secure european sabre like grip. The conical shape prevents the hand from slipping over the blade during powerful trusts. The thing, how offensive it may look to a keris collector, has a historic context like Gustav has pointed out. And this makes it interesting for me But good to hear that the keris-blade itself has some uncommon features, make it even more interesting And i am also happy to anounce that the modification have been very gently to the original keris. Nothing seems to be filed off, neither from the blade nor from the sheath. Anyway, i'm still struggling getting the hilt off using the candle-method described by Alan in another thread. Assessing my progress so far this may take quite a while... Best Regards, Thilo Attached Images

22nd May 2011, 10:43 PM	#11
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	"And i am also happy to anounce that the modification have been very gently to the original keris. Nothing seems to be filed off, neither from the blade nor from the sheath." ?

22nd May 2011, 11:12 PM	#13
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,775	I know what Gustav mean, the blade look in the sorsoran area very very weird so you can think that it is modified. I guess that it is a Peninsula blade so my hope is that Kai Wee see this thread and can tell us something about this blade. When Thilo has opened the hilt it would be good when he post again some pictures to get a better view from the blade. Regards, Detlef

22nd May 2011, 11:25 PM	#14
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hello Thilo, I can go a long way with your theory about modification for use in a western slashing style. If the original owner was stationed in Batavia I can imagine that he had it modificated there, explaining the handle. I agree in keeping the piece in its present configuration considering its history. Maybe indeed add a buntut and cleaning /oiling the blade. I hope that maybe other forumites can comment on the blade ? Are there any age indications for this blade ? Best regards, Willem

22nd May 2011, 11:39 PM	#16
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	I am also interested in this kind of blades with multiple sogokan/srawejan/kruwingan. As I understand some of them are attributed to Sumbawa (post #19 and #49 in this thread:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=kalawija), yet it probably is possible, such blades are occuring in central Sumatra or even Peninsula. By the way, it seems there is a possibility this blade is having pamor. The sheath is Peninsular. Last edited by Gustav; 22nd May 2011 at 11:54 PM.

29th May 2011, 04:53 PM	#18
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Here are some updates. After several heating sessions, i finally got the hilt off. Sadly, the heating and twisting was too much for the wooden crosspiece. At least the split is very clean so it can easily be glued. As can be seen on the smaller picture, the "javanese part" of the hilt is filled with terra-cotta. The pesi was wrapped with a composite of resin and some fibrous material (similar to hemp). Best Regards, Thilo Attached Images

29th May 2011, 08:28 PM	#20
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Hello David, I already expected that someone would use this opportunity to push me again in the direction of dressing this keris properly But there might be a problem doing this. The pesi of this keris is 113mm (4.4'') long. This might be the actual reason why the wooden piece was added in the first place. Finding a proper hilt (or a very large mendak) of this size might take a while... Until then the keris will keep its silly and well worn dress Of course, i'm well aware that a keris is not a slashing weapon. But the fittings and the weight of this keris almost encourage everyone who holds it in his hand to slash at something. And obviously someone did... The title "a keris for slashing" was meant as a pun (slashing instead of sharing). Best Regards, Thilo

2nd June 2011, 11:07 AM	#23
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi, looking at the blade (including the tang), I feel that it is most likely from Sumbawa. The blade form in general can be found along Sumatra and along the Straits of Malacca and Sumbawa. I've seen example of this form in what seems to be authentic fitting dress. How this piece gets its current fittings, I've no idea, although other members had presented with some nice ones.. What makes me think its probably Sumbawa are.. the indicators from the blade base area, includes the awkward form at the gandik area, the sogokan, the greneng area and the long tang. The blade doesn't fit that well in the sheath. The mouth where the kembang kacang (belalai gajah) is, needed to be made bigger to accommodate the blade to fit the sheath (post #10).

2nd June 2011, 03:03 PM	#24
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Here is an interesting thread on Sumbawa keris. If indeed it turns out that this keris is from there it might give you some ideas. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=1&pp=30

3rd June 2011, 01:54 AM	#28
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Well Sumatra is perhaps the origin of the sheath, but i doubt that the blade itself originated there. I just noticed from the close-up in post #18 that it seems to have a pamor wengkon. It will be very nice to see the blade cleaned and stained so that we can see this pamor stand out.

3rd June 2011, 02:07 AM	#29
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I understand that for many who read what I will now write, I am close to uttering sacrilege, but the simple fact of the matter is this:- for low quality blades produced as market commodities, as opposed to bespoke blades produced by an mpu for a specific person, the length of the pesi was not set at time of making:- it finished up as it finished up. It was expected that the buyer of the blade would trim the length of the pesi to suit the hilt. Don't forget this:- many ready made blades were sold to people who made their own dress, they were not necessarily dressed by a specialist craftsman, nor were they dressed according to some esoteric belief that the pesi contained the spirit of the blade, to my knowledge, only a certain segment of present day keris collectors and mystics hold this belief. There was no bar to the trimming of a pesi in a ready made keris in order that it would fit the hilt. The same holds true today:- very often the pesi on mid to low quality present day keris will be far too long for the hilt, so the mranggi trims the pesi to the correct length. In a Surakarta keris this length is +/- 7cm measured from the top of the blade, not the top of the gonjo. Sometimes we find a Javanese blade in Bugis dress. To fit the Bugis hilt the pesi is invariably shortened, and sometimes bent. It is OK to dream about what is so and what is not so, but the people who actually make, maintain and use keris have not in the past, and do not now, necessarily subscribe to the same dreams that are held by many of the people who collect them.

3rd June 2011, 11:18 AM	#30
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	@David Quite possible that it is indeed from Sumbawa, the real story behind this keris is most likely lost in time. The keris is currently enjoying an extended bath in pineapple juice. I guess one or two more days and it will be clean. I will certainly post pictures when its ready @Alan Thank you. That is indeed an interesting bit of information. I was aware that keris are frequently modified to increase market value and that damaged keris are repaired. But otherwise i thought that except cleaning and restaining the keris had to be left untouched. Best Regards, Thilo