A French saber for id

Cerjak · 6th November 2016, 08:20 PM

A French saber for comment

O.L. 91 cm ; blade L. 76 cm; blade width at hilt 3.5 cm
Any information on it would be welcome.
Best
Cerjak

Jim McDougall · 6th November 2016, 10:38 PM

Surely 18th century, third quarter to 1790s, and French attribution seems likely, the thumb ring interesting recalling German cavalry sabres of earlier periods.
The blade and general appearance of the sword resemble French and American horsemans sabres as seen in Neumann ("Swords and Blades of the American Revolution").
I would suggest at this point, the sunbursts on the faces of the bilobate guard may have Masonic connotation.

M ELEY · 10th November 2016, 06:24 AM

Absolutely beautiful sword! Could the markings on the bilobed guard be in reverence to the Sun King?

canos · 10th November 2016, 11:21 AM

The engraving on the guard indicates a saber of the Gardes du Corps ( France ). Probably a privately procured weapon. Type: Wallonne, about 1680 - 1700.

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2016, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Absolutely beautiful sword! Could the markings on the bilobed guard be in reverence to the Sun King?

Mark, I missed that! and excellent suggestion. French tradition alluding to King Louis XIV and his influences certainly prevailed after his death in 1718, though Canos placement as within that period seems quite correct. While I was thinking of these type swords in use in the American Revolution (Neumann) many much earlier European swords did indeed find use that much later.
Canos, again, thank you for your input here.

corrado26 · 10th November 2016, 06:18 PM

I do not know what kind of sabre this is, but what I know is that this is not a French piece.
I have checked all volumes of Christian Aries "Armes Blanches Militaires Francaises" and all other French reference books concerning French swords and I am absolutely sure that this is no French sabre. This kind of hilt is totally unknown with French sabres of any age.
corrado26

Cerjak · 10th November 2016, 06:21 PM

dear Jim ,Mr eley ,Canos
The two expert opinions I had received on this saber who confirm that is it a 17 th century saber but both can’t confirm that it is for sure French but for sure north European . It could equally be German or Dutch.
Also the late 17 th century would match with Louis XIV who ruled as King of France from 1643 until his death in 1715.Also the King's own emblem, the sun could make us think that this saber by the markings on the guard could be a reverence to the Sun King .

best
CERJAK

M ELEY · 10th November 2016, 11:30 PM

Well, I think we are getting somewhere with all of the input from everyone! The flat pommel does indeed resemble those early hangers from the 1680-1700 period. The double guards reminds me of the Walloon pattern, so...

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2016, 01:57 AM

Corrado, I envy your having access to Aries!!! These volumes are not only hard to find, but horribly expensive.
Actually I think the suggestion of private acquisition though may put this example outside the scope of most of these references which attend to mostly regulation patterns.
I think the geopolitical possibility which transcends such borders but held loyalties or support of the French King might account for such motif and the anomalous styling. Personally I feel inclined toward the French potential,
but agree that as with Walloons, it could be Flemish or border regions of Germany.

* The axiom I was long ago told, 'weapons do not recognize geographic borders.

corrado26 · 11th November 2016, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I envy your having access to Aries!!! These volumes are not only hard to find, but horribly expensive.

What means that you are looking for the Aries volumes? As I am living very near to the French border and have lots of collector friends there it should be not too hard to find these volumes at a resonable price!
Let me know your intentions.
corrado26

6th November 2016, 08:20 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	A French saber for id A French saber for comment O.L. 91 cm ; blade L. 76 cm; blade width at hilt 3.5 cm Any information on it would be welcome. Best Cerjak Attached Images

10th November 2016, 11:21 AM	#4
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	Engraving - Gardes du corps The engraving on the guard indicates a saber of the Gardes du Corps ( France ). Probably a privately procured weapon. Type: Wallonne, about 1680 - 1700.

6th November 2016, 10:38 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Surely 18th century, third quarter to 1790s, and French attribution seems likely, the thumb ring interesting recalling German cavalry sabres of earlier periods. The blade and general appearance of the sword resemble French and American horsemans sabres as seen in Neumann ("Swords and Blades of the American Revolution"). I would suggest at this point, the sunbursts on the faces of the bilobate guard may have Masonic connotation.

10th November 2016, 06:24 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	Absolutely beautiful sword! Could the markings on the bilobed guard be in reverence to the Sun King?

10th November 2016, 06:18 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	I do not know what kind of sabre this is, but what I know is that this is not a French piece. I have checked all volumes of Christian Aries "Armes Blanches Militaires Francaises" and all other French reference books concerning French swords and I am absolutely sure that this is no French sabre. This kind of hilt is totally unknown with French sabres of any age. corrado26

10th November 2016, 06:21 PM	#7
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	dear Jim ,Mr eley ,Canos The two expert opinions I had received on this saber who confirm that is it a 17 th century saber but both can’t confirm that it is for sure French but for sure north European . It could equally be German or Dutch. Also the late 17 th century would match with Louis XIV who ruled as King of France from 1643 until his death in 1715.Also the King's own emblem, the sun could make us think that this saber by the markings on the guard could be a reverence to the Sun King . best CERJAK

10th November 2016, 11:30 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	Well, I think we are getting somewhere with all of the input from everyone! The flat pommel does indeed resemble those early hangers from the 1680-1700 period. The double guards reminds me of the Walloon pattern, so...

11th November 2016, 01:57 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Corrado, I envy your having access to Aries!!! These volumes are not only hard to find, but horribly expensive. Actually I think the suggestion of private acquisition though may put this example outside the scope of most of these references which attend to mostly regulation patterns. I think the geopolitical possibility which transcends such borders but held loyalties or support of the French King might account for such motif and the anomalous styling. Personally I feel inclined toward the French potential, but agree that as with Walloons, it could be Flemish or border regions of Germany. * The axiom I was long ago told, 'weapons do not recognize geographic borders.