Indonesian Dagger ?

drac2k · 29th June 2022, 06:33 PM

I'm not sure if this is an Indonesian dagger or a retired spearhead;any help would be appreciated.
The blade measures 12.75" long.

naturalist · 29th June 2022, 10:09 PM

Good day Drac2K,
Thank you so much for showing a really nice specimen.
I know nothing on the differences between tombak and dagger, however, i saw no "methuk" on your specimen. I am sure that methuk is normally occurs in tombak. Yours is kind of ricasso instead of methuk.
Yesterday actually i really want to post a specimen of mine that may be relevant to your post.
The style of sarangka (sheath), reminds me of specimens that come from West Java.
I lack experience and knowledge to be able to understand better on the handle.
Nowadays, most of the specimens are in a new contemporary sheath and handle. Your sheath and handle in my opinion are not in "seken" type, if it is in seken type, that's normally the sheath and handle of "retired" spearhead.

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2022, 10:52 PM

Djelenga tells us that in Lombok it is called a "tempius".

It has a different name in Central Jawa, something like "sangklon" or "sangklun" or "sangkur". I really forget, it has been at least 20 years since I've seen one of these things.

Gustav · 29th June 2022, 11:44 PM

Here a quite interesting old thread on these and similar.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...tombak+bayonet

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2022, 12:16 AM

Thanks Gustav. I got the "sang" bit right, anyway.

I have forgotten the 'buntut mimi' name entirely.

Interestingly, the BI word for "bayonet" is "sangkur", and this item under discussion has a similar triangular cross section as 19th century French bayonets.

EDIT

Not 20 years since I've seen one, only 16.

naturalist · 30th June 2022, 01:45 AM

when it comes to "dapur" it may be called as "cipiran" (from the morph of kecipir/winged bean). But i found some said "sujen ampel" which is sujen (skewer) ampel (a species of bamboo) is not really symmetric square if we cut the blade diagonally while cipiran is symmetric (but the triangular form also called as cipiran).
Bayonet is true called as sangkur by Indonesian. However, badik that is named after "sangkur" such as badik "pucuk sangkuh" or badik "sangkuh", usually has "normal bevel/grind" (double bevel) and it can be a single edge or has a half-sharpened edge on the other side. Sangkuh i believe is a way to pronounce or call sangkur, i found this term (sangkuh) from South Kalimantan.

drac2k · 30th June 2022, 03:50 AM

Thanks to all for the information provided!

29th June 2022, 06:33 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Indonesian Dagger ? I'm not sure if this is an Indonesian dagger or a retired spearhead;any help would be appreciated. The blade measures 12.75" long. Attached Images Last edited by drac2k; 29th June 2022 at 06:34 PM. Reason: to add information

30th June 2022, 12:16 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Thanks Gustav. I got the "sang" bit right, anyway. I have forgotten the 'buntut mimi' name entirely. Interestingly, the BI word for "bayonet" is "sangkur", and this item under discussion has a similar triangular cross section as 19th century French bayonets. EDIT Not 20 years since I've seen one, only 16. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 30th June 2022 at 12:26 AM. Reason: correction

29th June 2022, 10:09 PM	#2
naturalist Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 64	Good day Drac2K, Thank you so much for showing a really nice specimen. I know nothing on the differences between tombak and dagger, however, i saw no "methuk" on your specimen. I am sure that methuk is normally occurs in tombak. Yours is kind of ricasso instead of methuk. Yesterday actually i really want to post a specimen of mine that may be relevant to your post. The style of sarangka (sheath), reminds me of specimens that come from West Java. I lack experience and knowledge to be able to understand better on the handle. Nowadays, most of the specimens are in a new contemporary sheath and handle. Your sheath and handle in my opinion are not in "seken" type, if it is in seken type, that's normally the sheath and handle of "retired" spearhead.

29th June 2022, 10:52 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Djelenga tells us that in Lombok it is called a "tempius". It has a different name in Central Jawa, something like "sangklon" or "sangklun" or "sangkur". I really forget, it has been at least 20 years since I've seen one of these things.

29th June 2022, 11:44 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Here a quite interesting old thread on these and similar. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...tombak+bayonet

30th June 2022, 01:45 AM	#6
naturalist Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 64	when it comes to "dapur" it may be called as "cipiran" (from the morph of kecipir/winged bean). But i found some said "sujen ampel" which is sujen (skewer) ampel (a species of bamboo) is not really symmetric square if we cut the blade diagonally while cipiran is symmetric (but the triangular form also called as cipiran). Bayonet is true called as sangkur by Indonesian. However, badik that is named after "sangkur" such as badik "pucuk sangkuh" or badik "sangkuh", usually has "normal bevel/grind" (double bevel) and it can be a single edge or has a half-sharpened edge on the other side. Sangkuh i believe is a way to pronounce or call sangkur, i found this term (sangkuh) from South Kalimantan.

30th June 2022, 03:50 AM	#7
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks to all for the information provided!