Ottoman/Albanian Khanjar scabbard markings

[DavidFriedman]

Ottoman/Albanian Khanjar scabbard markings. Is anyone able to read or identify any of these markings that came out when I cleaned the scabbard today?

Possible Turkish Tugra?

Thanks.

[OsobistGB]

About identification...I am curious what is the reason why this type of daggers are designated as Albanian?
About the marking...The first is the sultan's tugrah is placed on silver objects certifying paid taxes to the treasury.The rest are the master's stamp

[DavidFriedman]

Thank you. Any idea which Sultans Tugrah this might be, to show its age?

I’m not sure why they are designated as Albanian. Is it because this type of grip was more in Vogue up there perhaps?

Originally Posted by OsobistGB

About identification...I am curious what is the reason why this type of daggers are designated as Albanian?
About the marking...The first is the sultan's tugrah is placed on silver objects certifying paid taxes to the treasury.The rest are the master's stamp

[Interested Party]

I would love to see the blade! to see what type of construction Albanians preferred.

[kronckew]

The hilt shape looks rather Kurdish...

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by kronckew

The hilt shape looks rather Kurdish...

Not arguing your point, but I have seen other hilts in this style labeled Balkan or Albanian. If someone could explain the fine differences in the hilts that would be enlightening and amazing

Thanks for any help,
IP

[OsobistGB]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Thank you. Any idea which Sultans Tugrah this might be, to show its age?

I’m not sure why they are designated as Albanian. Is it because this type of grip was more in Vogue up there perhaps?

The possibilities are two, maximum three Mahmud II or Abdul Hamid II. It is highly unlikely to be Selim III.

[mariusgmioc]

I believe the designation of these daggers as Albanian or Balkan is completely wrong!

The turgha stamp on this one points towards a TURKISH origin, and not Albanian.
Moreover the style of these daggers has nothing to do with Albanian traditional motifs.
Last, but not least, Albania had no tradition in producing weapons and there are no known historical examples of this type of "albanian daggers" or anything similar BEFORE the Turkish Ottoman occupation.

So, I am convinced this is a TURKISH hançer, either made in Turkey (most certainly because of the Turgha punch mark) or made somewhere else in the Ottoman empire by a Turkish swordsmith.

I have seen many other types of swords, daggers, or even yataghans atributed to Greece, Albania, Bosnia or generally "the Balkans" that are typically Turkish. I believe this to be a major error that continues to be propagated and amplified through anecdotal means.

Even Elgood in his book "The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period" presents many typical Turkish weapons as being Greek or from the Balkans simply based on anecdotal evidence. Namely because the owner of the blade said so... Completely unscientific, unprofessional and misleading!

So, is a yataghan that was made by a Turkish swordsmith that moved along with the Turkish army and was stationed in Greece, Greek?! Or can we say that the yataghans produced by him are Greek?!

Because this is exactly what happened in most cases. The massive Ottoman army was accompanied by many Turkish swordsmiths when it conquered and occupied Greece and the Balkans. And these Turkish swordsmiths established some production centers in these occupied regions and continued to supply weapons to the Ottoman army stationed there.

While there are some, very few, typical Ottoman weapons like yataghans or kilijes that have clear stylistic particularities that allow them to be confidently attributed to Greece or the Balkans, the majority are not, and should be considered as Turkish, if there are no clearly distinguishable features that distinguishes them from the ones made in "mainland Turkey."

[TVV]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Because this is exactly what happened in most cases. The massive Ottoman army was accompanied by many Turkish swordsmiths when it conquered and occupied Greece and the Balkans. And these Turkish swordsmiths established some production centers in these occupied regions and continued to supply weapons to the Ottoman army stationed there.

It is amazing how the Eastern Roman Empire, the First and Second Bulgarian Empires and the Serbian Empire accomplished what they did over a period of close to a millennium fighting with sticks and stones and a few imported weapons or trophies, since they obviously had no arms and armor craftsmen. Good thing the Ottoman brought blacksmithing to the Constantinople and the Balkans...

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Even Elgood in his book "The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period" presents many typical Turkish weapons as being Greek or from the Balkans simply based on anecdotal evidence. Namely because the owner of the blade said so... Completely unscientific, unprofessional and misleading!

Absolutely right. Moreover. I do not see any "Albanian" decor on this dagger. If there was such a decor, one could at least somehow say that this dagger is "Albanian"

[gp]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Last, but not least, Albania had no tradition in producing weapons and there are no known historical examples of this type of "albanian daggers" or anything similar BEFORE the Turkish Ottoman occupation.


Even Elgood in his book "The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period" presents many typical Turkish weapons as being Greek or from the Balkans simply based on anecdotal evidence. Namely because the owner of the blade said so... Completely unscientific, unprofessional and misleading!

Ignorance is no excuse and lack of knowledge in this forum can not be the case. I could state the same (unscientific, unprofessional and misleading!) of the above but think honestly that your are misguided resulting in some assumptions which are not all that correct.

First of all if one does search my contributions, one will find many books and publications which proof the opposite of your above statement and Turkoman arkadash's approval of being no literature on the Balkan region ( as Albania historically is much bigger than the present state...so we ought to talk about a specific Balkanregion ☺)
No disrespect and no offence intended!
I am talking about approx 40 to 50 of them in all kind of languages from all kind of countries. Between 1850 and 2020. So please do not say there is nothing written.

As for Albania (and part of Dalmatia and Bosnia even up to Slovenia), the original inhabitants (the Illyrians); many books and publications have been written as well during the last 4 decades.
Wiki also has brief info on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_weaponry

Back to Elgood: I previously stated in this forum and in literature confirmation can be found that his writting on the Balkans is based on "borrowing" from the Serbian lady Đurđica Petrović who wrote books and many publications on the topic which are a tremendous source of knowledge. (2 examples: Dubrovačko oružje u XIV veku / Dubrovnik arms in the XIV century and Balkansko oružje (XII-XIX v.) / Balkan arms X11 - XIX century)

Also in research gate you can find many publictions and books contradicting your statement and providing info on Balkan arms from before the Ottoman Empire. And not all Roman of Byzantine remnants but own developements by or during kingdoms like the Nemanjas or Asens)

A recommandation f.i. : Enes Dedić: Mirsad Sijarić, Hladno oružje iz Bosne i Hercegovine u arheologiji razvijenog i kasnog srednjeg vijeka, Univerzitet u Sarajevu – Zemaljski muzej Bosne i Hercegovine, Sarajevo 2014.

Long story short: there is a lot to be found nowadays in Romania, Bulgaria, the former Yugoslavia and Albania... if we only open our eyes and minds and leave the western tunnelvision home and yes; many of us do not master the language if books and publications are not translated, but that does not mean it doesn't exist...
Let's not forget many was ignored till 1990ies due to the cold war in which a lot was sadly ignored comming from "the other" side
And with google translate you can find your way through these books if you do not master a Slavic language...

Last but not least: when I joined this forum a couple of years ago, I was choqued by the lack of knowledge on Balkan cold weapons, with the exception of a lad with Bulgarian roots.
Too many "I think" and assumptions but no real knowledge of the weapons, the literature / books and details on the topics like kamas, bichaqs, yataghans. Yes a lot collected them and sold them due to their "exotic" nature but nowhere near the knowledge you guys have on rencongs, klewangs, kerrises and other cold weapons from the Indonesian archipelago....

F.y.i. : I am Dutch before somebody accuses me again here of being bias because I was thought in the past by a smart--beep to be a guy with Balkan roots and hence not objective.
I am a 100% born and raised "Cloggy"☺☼☺

I am not talking about the cold weapons presented here above to be Albanian, which do look to me like originating from Irak, Kurdistan, parts of Turkey close to the previous two mentioned countries.