Formosa/Taiwan, dodgy pic gamble

[Tim Simmons]

I have just picked this. I tried various picture enhancing programs but not really much help. It is 66cm long. We will just have to wait untill it arrives. Under magnification, i have hopes that it is okay. If it is rubbish i have only lost two portions but with large chips. I can never eat them all anyway.

[Henk]

Hi Tim,

Not a very clear picture indeed. Hard to say something about it but the scabbard looks like a talibon from the Philippines. The hilt might be a replacement and about the blade I cann't say a thing.
Hope your gambling turns out good for you.

[Rick]

I think your conclusion is in the correct geographic area Tim.

The rarity here may be the straight blade as they are less common than the curved ones.

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/articles/taiwan

[Ian]

Tim:

I'm skeptical about this one. The picture is very hard to see much detail. It does appear Taiwanese. The straight single-edged blade of uniform width for most of its length is typical of the Paiwan knife/sword. The hilt looks to be a recent version of circular cross section that may have been turned on a lathe and then carved -- can't tell from the pics. The scabbard, however, looks wrong for a Paiwan sword. Typically the Paiwan scabbards are closed on the front and have carved designs, with the snake and human faces being prominent motifs. The open-faced scabbard is seen among other tribal groups, such as the Atayal, but their knives/swords are curved and quite different from the Paiwan versions.

So this one looks to me like a hybrid of Taiwanese tribal styles. The person who could help you best is probably yuanzhumin -- Nicolas lives in Taiwan and knows as much about these knives and local culture as anyone on this Forum.

Another region that has open-faced scabbards is the Naga area of NE India. I don't think this knife is from there, but the picture is too small and blurred to say much more.

Hope it turns out to be a rare treasure.

Regards,

Ian.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes ebay has made a gambler of me . The picture is pretty awful but I have a little bit of hope still. Under magnification I suspect a reasonable blade. The handle is complete guess work. We will just have to wait which adds to the fun as we are only talk the price of two burgers. I am still thinking Formosa. I think it is safe to bet on some variation over time and location.

[Rick]

Semi open front.

[Tim Simmons]

I have just re-sized this picture from the link Rick provided. The scabbards seem to be open. I am really looking forward to the arrival. I must not get too carried away. The handle could be like some of the other Formosa knives one can find in a quick search here.

[paolo]

My one, open scabbard, seems to me Taiwan, Rukai tribe.
Paolo

[paolo]

Sorry, here are the pics

[Tim Simmons]

Oh dear that's nice. Careful you might get me over stimulated and make my moustache twitch , that would never do. If mine is okay then it has only a very simple handle which is not unknown.

[Andrew]

Good luck on this one Tim. Given the recent market on these things, two portions (even with large chips) is a great bargain!

[yuanzhumin]

Hello all of you,

I'm right back to Taipei from few days off spent in a bamboo hut, in the central mountains of Cebu, in the Philippines, at a friend's place ! It was beautiful ! By the way, I saw there two nice knives in the hands of local mountains people. I'm sure many of you would have died for these blades !

Tim, seing your picture, I think that the piece you bought on Ebay is from Taiwan, definitly from the Paiwan indigenous group, in the south of the island. That's the good news. The bad one is that I don't think it is very old, and I have doubt on its authenticity. I mean that I am not sure it was made by the Paiwan in order to be used by themselves, but my impression could be wrong. The picture is not very clear.

First, I would advise to read the excellent article written by Philip Tom (Hello Philip !) and Sherrod Anderson. It is the best on this subject that is so seldomly documented. Thanks Rick for the link !

Few positive elements for you, Tim :
-the scabbard is straight and ends with a snake head typical from the southern tribes (Paiwan, Rukai and Puyuma)
-it is open on one side and the blade is maintained in its channel by wires.
-the sizes and proportions appear to be correct.
-in addition, the red pigment on the scabbard is common on the ceremonial knives from these tribes.

NOT so positive elements :
-the string is attached to a kind of rectangular wood buckle that is not usual in these knives. Usually, the string is attached trough two holes made in the scabbard. You have good examples of what I say on the knives displayed by Rick and Paolo in the same thread.
-we don't see much of the snake head carving at the end of the scabbard, but it appears to be quite rough. If this knife is a ceremonial one as some elements of its aspects would lead to think, the fact that the carving on it is not delicate or more expressive, like the fine carvings or motives depicted in the article of Anderson and Tom or seen on Rick's and Paolo's knives, means something is wrong.
-This remark on the carving is valid also for the hilt, always finely decorated.
-Then going back to the shape of the hilt, I would be inclined to think like Ian (thanks for paging me, Ian) that it is too round to have been made for a tribal purpose.

All this brings me to the last part, the blade.

Tim, I don't see very well the blade on your knife, but it appears to me that it is not typical from the southern tribes - what could be bad or... good, depending on the case. In this case, we can compare your blade to Paolo's one.

Both blades are untypical as they seem to have a double bevel. In fact as it is said in the article already mentioned, the blades of the Paiwan have one bevel "much like the edge profile on a carpenter's chisel". Moreover, the tip of the blade should not be curved but straight like on Rick's example.

This fact confirm to me that Tim's knife has been done in a different way, not traditional at all.

So, Paolo, your knife has been done in a way also that is not traditional, but don't panic, this is a very good knife. I even saw it on sale one or two years ago on the A... website and I wanted to buy it myself. I was offering a price, when I was told that it was already sold. So you are the one that got it !

It was not cheap, if I remember well. But I think it worth it, as it is quite a special knife. Yours is form the Rukai group, as you mentioned, and is a ceremonial knife. But why is it also a little different in the style of the carvings and in the shape of the blade when compared to the other Rukai ceremonial knives, like Rick's one in the thread, for example ?

Because it is a fusion knife : this knife has been made for a tribal chief that collaborated with the Japanese and was so proud of it that he had his blade made from what could have been originally a Japanese saber or produced from a usual metal that would have been worked in the shape of a Japanese saber. You have to remember that Taiwan was a Japanese colony from 1895 to 1945. So this knife is definitly from before the Japanese departure. At that time, the Japanese authorities were courting the tribal chiefs and offering them trips to Japan and... medals. A medal is exactly the kind of decoration that we can see as motives on the iron staples bridging the open side of the scabbard. So congratulations, Paolo ! Quite an original finding !

Tim, please, share with us better pics of your knife when you receive it. Ah, one more thing for you, Tim, concerning your other Taiwanese knife, the Atayal knife that you showed me once : I can tell you now it is coming from the Truku (Taroko) tribe, one of the groups composing the Atayal, This group having the particularity to cherish the red color that, they were believing, could protect them from evil.


yuanzhumin

[Tim Simmons]

Thanks for the information. As soon as I have it I will post pictures. I have just a little hope that it is a good one, as we find that there are always some exceptions to the norm. The handle is off putting I agree. It was very very cheap.

[paolo]

Thank You yuanzhumin for the lot of informations You gave about the Taiwan swords. The blade of my sword is single edged, and the cross section is concave - convex (like a mandau). Also I noted the difference in the carving style between my one and the few I saw in the rare (and bad) pictures on some books I have.
Paolo

[yuanzhumin]

-One more thing for Paolo : the fact his blade is not made following traditional design seems to be confirmed by the cross-section design I see. This one looks like it has been borrowed from a blade outside of the tribes, probably a Japanese military one. On the side of the blade I see on the pictures - the side Paolo calls convex -, the cross-section appears to be in the shape of a diamond (a half diamond in fact, as the other side of the blade is flat or slightly concave - 'not edged' as Paolo wrote).This is definitly not the usual design. In deed, the traditional one should be flat, like on the model displayed by Rick (in that case, both sides of the blade are flat) or, like in most cases, it is hexagonal (or half hexagonal, as the other side is always flat or slightly hollowed).

-By the way, I take this opportunity to announce that the website presenting my collection of Taiwanese aboriginal artifacts (around 200 pieces, including around 15 edged weapons) will be ready and on line soon. I will communicate the address later on this forum for the persons that are interested.


Yuanzhumin

[Flavio]

Tim, I hope that this will arrive soon, because now i'm very curious

[paolo]

Thank You yuanzhumin for Your very exaustive expertise on my sword. Hoping to see soon Your on line site,
Regards
Paolo

[Tim Simmons]

Sorry about the wait on this. I have paid for what is meant to be first class post in the UK, which is generally quite good. If this does not arrive tomorrow I will contact the seller.
Next week I intent to go to town so I might have some more info on the stone club. I also want to start a thread on what I suspect are possibly African clubs being sold for much more money as stuff from the south seas and Australia Aboriginal. There seems so many of late that could so easily be south Sudan.

[Tim Simmons]

Strangely the blade is rather good. Better than some real old weapons. Nice with foriegn stamped twice on the blade. I do not need to say more.

[yuanzhumin]

Hi Tim,
Don't be too hard on yourself !
Sometimes it pays to gamble.
Anyway, this knife is interesting in some ways as it is also becoming a rarity. In fact, they are not made anymore. They are of the kind that were sold to the american troops stationed in Taiwan, in the fifties and sixties. By themselves, they are already some collectibles !
And some museums are also listing this kind of knives in their collection, thinking wrongly that they are the good ones. See my first pic. It is the pic of a knife seriously referenced in the archives of the anthropology department of an american museum (did they also buy it on Ebay ?).
To add to the collection of "new" or "fake", depending on how you want to call them, I attached also a pic from another of these 'tourist' fusion knives from the fifties. This one, I also bought it on Ebay... knowing in advance it was a fake. As I said, this kind of knife is becoming a rarity
Best,
yuanzhumin

[Lew]

Hi Guys

I found this photo but I do not know if these are the same people you are talking about? Notice the knives in their belts.


Lew