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#1 |
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Have provenance going back to acquisition by an American Brigadier General in 1898. He said it was "quite old" when he collected it. Note the diminutive ivory pommel about 5" long.
21 3/8" blade 9 shallow (siko) waves |
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#2 |
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Bill I was hoping you would share this with the forum. I like this one a lot with the ivory and the silver inlay. Provenance is so helpful thank you.
The silver near the top is embossed - something you don't see all that much on Moro pieces, never mind on Sulu pieces. Looks like the scabbard had a band near the top at some time. A lovely piece - again thanks. ![]() |
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#3 |
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Fantastic Kris (as usual when you find something)!
Where was it collected? Now and then I hear/read that brass or silver dots, like on this kris, indicates Borneo (probably based on the similar motif on the mandau blades). I doubt this myself and think it's a multi-cultural motif. So far I haven't seen it on any kris that has proven Borneo origin but... Michael |
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#4 |
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Beautiful.
Steve |
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#5 |
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Could it be that the scabbard is put later on .
Ben |
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#6 |
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The scabbard may be later, but the dot inlay are not just Borneo, but are on other PI/Moro pieces. I have seen these on barong, kris, and kampilan. It may be a regional thing, especially since there was lots of contact between Borneo and the Philippines for millenia.
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#7 | |
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Quite possible that it is not original for the kris, but my documentation shows this scabbard has been with this kris for over 100 years. |
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#8 |
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I do think it is an old scabbard if it is not original - look at the place where a metal band was near the top.....Also the patina on the wood looks old as well as the style of carving is right.....
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#9 |
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I see more use on the kris than on the scabbard that is why I ask .
And the rattan on the scabbard defnetily don't look 100 years old . Bill can you make an pic off the kris in the scabbard from above. Thanks Ben |
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#10 |
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I don't know if this sheath is original to the kris, but it might have more age than first appears. It looks to me as if this sheath has been aggressively refurbished. So Ben, the rattan on the stem probably is not all that old, but the sheath itself might well be. I can see where Jose sees evidence of a missing band and i think the wood has been refinished.
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#11 |
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Hi David the best off this can be see with an pic off the kris in the scabbard
and an close up from above . It is an shame to refurbished an old scabbard I see this also a lot with very old javanese krissen with scabbards that are at least 300 years old . Ben |
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#12 | |
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#13 |
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I look it at this way the kris that we are looking at is not from an person that has no money .
So the scabbard rebefurbished but was no need because he did have money, the only thing I can come up with that it has loose his scabbard and an new one has been made for it . (nothing wrong with it ) An Javanese kris with gold on it did not belong to the common people some javanese krissen had more than one scabbard . Ben |
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#14 | |
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#15 |
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from what little reading i've found, moro kris and barong were meant to be used in battle, and the scabbards were generally discarded before or during battle and maybe picked up later, maybe not. they also tended to be held together by a few rattan bands such that the whole scabbarded sword could be swung at an enemy and on hitting, cutting thru the simple rattan bands, which caught many american and spanish by surprise just before they were cut in half. upshot is moro pieces might have many scabbards over a lifetime, with higher class pieces like this less likely to have their scabbard discarded and not picked up, so more likely to be repaired rather than replaced, but still more likely to be replaced than the original it was made with.
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#16 |
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The other problem is that some of these scabbards did not survive the tropical environment there or even the many changes in environment once they were brought over here to the United States.
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#17 | |
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Yes this happens but not the way you discribe if we speak about javanese ones . The most nice ones that are in europe are taken away by the soldiers long time ago . Or they take a loan on the kris that they never could pay back and then it did get sold by the loanbank . There was also in the Netherlands in 1981 an big action these krissen where bring in by An Javanese prins to sell overhere and where sold for big pices but it was not that they where without money . Auction april 27th - may 4th 1981 Paul Brandt in Amsterdam name off cataloque the fascinating world of oriental art . But the story did go that some these where not old or disputable so they where brought back to the auction house Paul Brandt . Most off the common people did not have the money to get an kris and are not allowed to carry an high rank weapon this can be read in the historian books about Indonesia The are even Batiks motifs that only can be carried by high rank persons . So you are wrong if you say that these weapons are often passed down through generations. Just because someone's great, great grandpa was a member of court does not necessarily translate to present day wealth and than sell it because they poor . that this is the reason that they come on the market now . Some old time kris collectors overhere passed away and the collction did get split up I have see that happend the last few years . I have an friend that have some famous krissen in his collection that goes back to famous people of high rank and weddings gifts long time ago proven and a few out off this catalogue but the real old ones . Ben |
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#18 | |||||
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#19 | |
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Possibly he was mad at the auction house and was getting some kind of twisted revenge. You know that Javanese nobility can be easily offended and have their own methods of "getting even." But, maybe he did need money. Who knows? But as David also said, it would be highly disprectful to a Javanese kris NOT to have new dress. But sometimes very high quality Javanese keris are in very plain, but well-made new dress. Like a beautiful woman in a simple black dress. But old-looking, patinated, dress to a Javanese old-school collector would be like having your wife in rags -- dirty rags. Some of my best pieces, indeed my favorite, a Mataram Senopaten from the time of Sultan Agung (early 1600s) has very simple and plain recent dress. Often fine Nihonto have a plain scabbard that holds the resting blade. It is possible that the original scabbard got separated from this kris and this was made for a "resting place." I have read that when a Moro commissioned a smith to make him a kris, he might ask for different things at the expense of others, ie, a very fine blade and a lesser hilt. One of the many things I like about PI Kris is the incredible diversity of these pieces. I have some pictures for Ben, and though I did not exactly understand what he wants to see, I have made a couple of pictures. It is unquestionable that this scabbard did have something just under the wrongko, but it looks more like it was rattan or possibly wire? I used clamps to hold the scabbard halves together, perhaps I'll make a silver band. Last edited by Bill Marsh; 14th July 2008 at 02:56 AM. |
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#20 |
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This kris in my collection looks nearly identical to yours.
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#21 |
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Thanks Bill this looks like an nice old scabbard it is a shame that there is lak on it .
But as David also said, it would be highly disprectful to a Javanese kris NOT to have new dress. But sometimes very high quality Javanese keris are in very plain, but well-made new dress. Like a beautiful woman in a simple black dress. But old-looking, patinated, dress to a Javanese old-school collector would be like having your wife in rags -- dirty rags. This would be for the krissen that stays overthere but don't forget that the Dutch people take krissen from there 300 years or more ago and they did not get an new dress overhere ,also other europian country's did get their museums loaded with a lot off these items . Also the most knowledge about krissen was in europe by that time . The most and the best krissen I bilieve are outside Indonesia . and an lot off fake are made by them now . (fake is new made kris sold for old) I used to have an nice kris collection before I started my Borneo collection . Rich Indonesian people are buying back their own stuff at the moment on important auctions in Europe Ben |
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#22 | |
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![]() I also would not assume that the best keris are outside of Indonesia. While there is no doubt that many excellent keris were removed from the area years ago i am still fairly certain that a great many superb examples are kept as never-to-be-seen family pusaka or in the hands of Indonesian collectors that don't share their collections with the world at large. ![]() |
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#23 | |
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Hi Ben, I would submit there is a big difference in a connoisseur Javanese collector and a Dutch or other kind of collector. Most cultures like fine old dress. Though we can't prove it, I agree with David that there are still a lot of great Javanese keris in Java. To a Javanese collector, keris are very private and not shared except one on one with a few close friends. I still have a Javanese and Balinese collection, nearly as many as my Philippine collection but I don't post pictures. I would imagine that there are a few really good Balinese keris being held by the Dutch that were picked up after the pupitan in Klungkung. |
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#24 | |
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Something like J.E. Jasper en Mas pirngadie Ben |
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#25 |
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[QUOTE=Bill Marsh]Hi Ben,
Though we can't prove it, I agree with David that there are still a lot of great Javanese keris in Java. To a Javanese collector, keris are very private and not shared except one on one with a few close friends. I don t say that there are not nice javanese kris in Indonesia only the most off them are spread about europe . |
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#26 | |
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#27 | |
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Now this might be more true about Bali, given the pupatans as Bill mentions. There the dutch got a hold of a good deal of the regalia keris, keris they promised to give back at one time, but then changed their minds and never did. Many of the keris that were scooped up after the pupatans where very high quality court keris given the very nature of what the pupatans were and who laid down their lives (and keris) in them. ![]() |
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#28 | |
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David you don't now much about the Indonesian history how things did go 100 year s and more ago at Java otherwise you would not write this . Ben |
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#29 | |
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![]() Sorry Bill. ![]() Let's talk more about this wonderful kris. ![]() |
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#30 |
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I agree
Ben |
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