halberd

Multumesc · 16th June 2017, 07:11 PM

Hello.What do you think about this medieval halebard?Its length is 60 cm and it does not have a wooden handle.No visible welding traces.I do not know what the signs appear on her.Is it an old medieval thing?THANK YOU VERY MUCH

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mariusgmioc · 16th June 2017, 07:47 PM

Hello,

The piece appears to be hand forged and joined together.

However, I would expect to see much more corrosion traces on an antique blade, yet the blade is covered in a thick and uniform layer of black oxidation (from the forging I assume).

I am pretty sure it is a rather recent attempt of a blacksmith to create an antique-looking halebard.

But let's see what others more knowledgeable have to say.

Cu placere!

fernando · 16th June 2017, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... I would say it is a rather recent attempt of a blacksmith to create an antique-looking halebard.

But let's see what others more knowledgeable have to say....

Not being more knowledgeable, but certainly agreeing with your assumption; either a prop or a decoration replica

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Timo Nieminen · 17th June 2017, 12:54 AM

It isn't Medieval in style, but 18th century style. Much more crudely made than any known-to-be-real ones I've seen.

Philip · 17th June 2017, 06:37 AM

Agreeing with all 3 previous posts.

broadaxe · 24th June 2017, 07:50 PM

Also, the construction seems thin and too delicate, I think it will not survive any real blow with the axe blades.

M ELEY · 24th June 2017, 11:04 PM

I'm wondering if this could still be a legit piece, if not battle-worthy. Spanish colonial pikes, halberds and spontoons were crude at best, made by local blacksmiths in the colonies of Mexico and Central America. If you've seen some of the extremely primitive pieces from the American Revolution, you'll understand what I mean with crudity. This example could date to 19th c, where the colonies often used outdated forms of weaponry. This rough worked piece could have served a soldier as a ceremonial piece guarding some presideo in Old Mexico.
Note the odd star pattern stamp. This 'flower' pattern is often seen on Mexican spurs, espada ancha and even on the Brazilian cutlasses we have discussed in the past. I used to have a Mexican pike head with this exact star. Not saying I'm right, but just another possibility...

Would also point out that the socket, with its semi-open seam, fits the bill of many Span colonial pieces, including pike heads. Check out this old thread with colonial pike heads, noting the open seam. Also, the last pic on the thread has that mysterious * shape!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18787

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2017, 04:28 AM

I'm with you Mark!
The realm of weaponry in the often rural and remote regions of New Spain resulted in many examples of crude, yet effectively executed representations of traditional weapons of Europe. As small villages evolved into larger towns around missions and presidios, the local figures desiring to promote legitimacy and political control often had such weaponry fashioned by their blacksmiths.
I think one of the most telling features of these crudely made items is that they clearly are not intended to fool anyone, nor necessarily function as combative weapons (though they likely could). They are simply items used probably ceremonially , which brings the other potential use in theatrical sense. It would be hard to describe the number of such items found in various contexts in colonial areas which have been proven to be just that.

I think that 'star' as often seen in these contexts is possibly a blacksmiths mark, probably used in similar connotation to European markings, and probably purloined among these groups much the same as those were. Here it seems used in more a 'motif', much as we have seen the 'sickle marks' in multiple or linear fashion.

For great insight into these kinds of Spanish Colonial ironwork:
"Southwestern Colonial Ironwork"
Marc Simmons & Frank Turley, 1980

M ELEY · 27th June 2017, 10:00 PM

Thanks for posting a reference book for Spanish colonial pieces, Jim. Such works are proving hard to find.

I by no means swear that this piece is as I conjectured, just wanted to throw it into the pot as it were as another possibility. If it proved true, Multumesc might have a nicer piece than predicted, eh? I've posted pics of my Span colonial cuphilt in the past, showing the crude braising, 'lumpy' bars/crossguard, put-together grip/pommel, so we've all seen some pretty primitive types from the field. In Neumann's book on Rev War blades, just take a look at some of the 'folk-art' American halberds! Some of them were also not easy on the eyes!

16th June 2017, 07:11 PM	#1
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 203	halberd Hello.What do you think about this medieval halebard?Its length is 60 cm and it does not have a wooden handle.No visible welding traces.I do not know what the signs appear on her.Is it an old medieval thing?THANK YOU VERY MUCH . Attached Images

16th June 2017, 07:47 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello, The piece appears to be hand forged and joined together. However, I would expect to see much more corrosion traces on an antique blade, yet the blade is covered in a thick and uniform layer of black oxidation (from the forging I assume). I am pretty sure it is a rather recent attempt of a blacksmith to create an antique-looking halebard. But let's see what others more knowledgeable have to say. Cu placere! Last edited by mariusgmioc; 16th June 2017 at 08:18 PM.

24th June 2017, 11:04 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,095	I'm wondering if this could still be a legit piece, if not battle-worthy. Spanish colonial pikes, halberds and spontoons were crude at best, made by local blacksmiths in the colonies of Mexico and Central America. If you've seen some of the extremely primitive pieces from the American Revolution, you'll understand what I mean with crudity. This example could date to 19th c, where the colonies often used outdated forms of weaponry. This rough worked piece could have served a soldier as a ceremonial piece guarding some presideo in Old Mexico. Note the odd star pattern stamp. This 'flower' pattern is often seen on Mexican spurs, espada ancha and even on the Brazilian cutlasses we have discussed in the past. I used to have a Mexican pike head with this exact star. Not saying I'm right, but just another possibility... Would also point out that the socket, with its semi-open seam, fits the bill of many Span colonial pieces, including pike heads. Check out this old thread with colonial pike heads, noting the open seam. Also, the last pic on the thread has that mysterious * shape! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18787 Last edited by M ELEY; 25th June 2017 at 05:37 AM.

17th June 2017, 12:54 AM	#4
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	It isn't Medieval in style, but 18th century style. Much more crudely made than any known-to-be-real ones I've seen.

17th June 2017, 06:37 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Agreeing with all 3 previous posts.

24th June 2017, 07:50 PM	#6
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Also, the construction seems thin and too delicate, I think it will not survive any real blow with the axe blades.

27th June 2017, 04:28 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	I'm with you Mark! The realm of weaponry in the often rural and remote regions of New Spain resulted in many examples of crude, yet effectively executed representations of traditional weapons of Europe. As small villages evolved into larger towns around missions and presidios, the local figures desiring to promote legitimacy and political control often had such weaponry fashioned by their blacksmiths. I think one of the most telling features of these crudely made items is that they clearly are not intended to fool anyone, nor necessarily function as combative weapons (though they likely could). They are simply items used probably ceremonially , which brings the other potential use in theatrical sense. It would be hard to describe the number of such items found in various contexts in colonial areas which have been proven to be just that. I think that 'star' as often seen in these contexts is possibly a blacksmiths mark, probably used in similar connotation to European markings, and probably purloined among these groups much the same as those were. Here it seems used in more a 'motif', much as we have seen the 'sickle marks' in multiple or linear fashion. For great insight into these kinds of Spanish Colonial ironwork: "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork" Marc Simmons & Frank Turley, 1980

27th June 2017, 10:00 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,095	Thanks for posting a reference book for Spanish colonial pieces, Jim. Such works are proving hard to find. I by no means swear that this piece is as I conjectured, just wanted to throw it into the pot as it were as another possibility. If it proved true, Multumesc might have a nicer piece than predicted, eh? I've posted pics of my Span colonial cuphilt in the past, showing the crude braising, 'lumpy' bars/crossguard, put-together grip/pommel, so we've all seen some pretty primitive types from the field. In Neumann's book on Rev War blades, just take a look at some of the 'folk-art' American halberds! Some of them were also not easy on the eyes!