Swiss lionhead saber with brass covered hilt

midelburgo · 22nd August 2022, 11:07 PM

It seems I made a little fumble.
I have been putting together a file of images of Spanish late XVIIth to late XVIIIth hilts covered with two brass or silver cylindrical pieces. Sometimes they meet at the middle sometimes they dont. They used the same kind on knifes up to the end of XIXth century
I also remembered a lion head saber, at the Luis Calvo chapter on early Spanish c1700 dragoon swords (bottom right). So called Washington Spanish swords, bottom left.

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/48-DragS.pdf

So I saw this saber and I won it.

Now I know it is actually a Swiss saber. Spain never had Swiss mercenary cavalry. I still have to research French units in the Spanish sucession war.

Relevant threads:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20946

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27896

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18464

Hotspur · 23rd August 2022, 01:51 AM

It is a Swiss bear, not a lion. In my opinion and research.

midelburgo · 23rd August 2022, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

It is a Swiss bear, not a lion. In my opinion and research.

Interesting. It makes sense. I cannot change the title now.

I have been giving a look to
Kriegswesen und Kriegskunst der schweizerischen Eidgenossen- Carl von Elgger

And I only find a citation for cavalry as foreign units were contracted to go with the swiss knechte. I see Swiss cavalry swords do not seem too exceptional, but I do not find the units.

fernando · 24th August 2022, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

Interesting. It makes sense. I cannot change the title now...

We can do that. What title would you like it be ?

midelburgo · 26th August 2022, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

We can do that. What title would you like it be ?

Felines that are plantigrads or something alike. Not needed really.

The sabre arrived. Very nice, very sharp. I have to decide if I touch the thumbring or it remains that crooked (but safe) way. A plate is missing on the oposite side, possibly brass (see example at the bottom).

Now. I still do not understand how something as minoritary as "Swiss cavalry" has left so many swords behind. If you read battle reports from the period, you have lots of croats everybattle, but no Swiss cavalry.

Searching on the web I almost see an evolution of these swords in XVIIIth century... reaching America!

werecow · 27th August 2022, 02:11 AM

Speaking of Swiss brass hilted sabers and pommels with heads, might as well post this here: this was on auction on catawiki last week. I did not buy it (although I estimate there is an 89.31% chance that it went to someone reading this forum on occasion), but I haven't seen anything too close to it before, so curious as to your thoughts. 87.5cm, sold as " Switzerland. 17/18 century Artistic, private production.".
Not sure if the head is that of a lion (or bear), but otherwise it seemed to fit this thread title too well not to mention it. Hope it's not too off topic.

EDIT: Also, is that thumb ring bent in the saber posted in the OP, or is that some configuration I'm not familiar with?

M ELEY · 27th August 2022, 10:22 AM

This saber would date to the late 17th/early 18th based on the finger ring configuration. The all-brass hilt indicates infantry/foot soldier, as does the longer curved blade. The usage of acorn finials would point to a Germanic or Swiss possibility, but can't really rule out Dutch due to the side guard. Nice sword!

midelburgo · 30th August 2022, 12:08 AM

I have been collecting some more pictures of these sabers.

Handling it I have reach the idea that it is not a proper cavalry weapon, rather a mounted officer one (infantry I guess). That makes more sense to the lack of Swiss cavalry units.

At the end of XVIIth century there were 12 regiments of Swiss Infantry at the service of the Spanish Habsburgs, so that conciliate my idea when I bought this sabre.

The question remains if it is apropiate to describe this sort of hilt as belonging to the walloon type. And if the lion-bear head pommels are exclusively Swiss, what can be said of swords with the same hilt but straight blades and ovoid/apple pommels?

22nd August 2022, 11:07 PM	#1
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	Swiss lionhead saber with brass covered hilt It seems I made a little fumble. I have been putting together a file of images of Spanish late XVIIth to late XVIIIth hilts covered with two brass or silver cylindrical pieces. Sometimes they meet at the middle sometimes they dont. They used the same kind on knifes up to the end of XIXth century I also remembered a lion head saber, at the Luis Calvo chapter on early Spanish c1700 dragoon swords (bottom right). So called Washington Spanish swords, bottom left. http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/48-DragS.pdf So I saw this saber and I won it. Now I know it is actually a Swiss saber. Spain never had Swiss mercenary cavalry. I still have to research French units in the Spanish sucession war. Relevant threads: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20946 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27896 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18464 Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 22nd August 2022 at 11:46 PM.

27th August 2022, 02:11 AM	#6
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 499	Speaking of Swiss brass hilted sabers and pommels with heads, might as well post this here: this was on auction on catawiki last week. I did not buy it (although I estimate there is an 89.31% chance that it went to someone reading this forum on occasion), but I haven't seen anything too close to it before, so curious as to your thoughts. 87.5cm, sold as " Switzerland. 17/18 century Artistic, private production.". Not sure if the head is that of a lion (or bear), but otherwise it seemed to fit this thread title too well not to mention it. Hope it's not too off topic. EDIT: Also, is that thumb ring bent in the saber posted in the OP, or is that some configuration I'm not familiar with? Attached Images Last edited by werecow; 27th August 2022 at 03:59 AM.

30th August 2022, 12:08 AM	#8
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	I have been collecting some more pictures of these sabers. Handling it I have reach the idea that it is not a proper cavalry weapon, rather a mounted officer one (infantry I guess). That makes more sense to the lack of Swiss cavalry units. At the end of XVIIth century there were 12 regiments of Swiss Infantry at the service of the Spanish Habsburgs, so that conciliate my idea when I bought this sabre. The question remains if it is apropiate to describe this sort of hilt as belonging to the walloon type. And if the lion-bear head pommels are exclusively Swiss, what can be said of swords with the same hilt but straight blades and ovoid/apple pommels? Attached Images

23rd August 2022, 01:51 AM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	It is a Swiss bear, not a lion. In my opinion and research.

27th August 2022, 10:22 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	This saber would date to the late 17th/early 18th based on the finger ring configuration. The all-brass hilt indicates infantry/foot soldier, as does the longer curved blade. The usage of acorn finials would point to a Germanic or Swiss possibility, but can't really rule out Dutch due to the side guard. Nice sword!