indonesian blades ? Exact Origin ?

francantolin · 8th December 2014, 10:23 AM

Hello,

I have bought these two knives in flea market and don't really know much about.

The first seems to have a silver hilt (?), the blade and the scabbard seems to be more like a spear head ? Nice pamor ?...

The second is strange because the blade seems to be a small antique (?) spear head mixed with a more recent hilt (silver ?) and scabbard.

What do you think ? Age ? Origin ?

Thank you

Frankie

A. G. Maisey · 8th December 2014, 12:35 PM

Yes, they're spear blades (tombak).

I would need to handle them to estimate age and close examination would be necessary to provide a supportable opinion on origin, however, from what I can see in the photos, the first one is possibly Javanese. The metuk (transition fitting between blade and shaft) appears to be missing from this first blade and it looks like it has been replaced with a brass fitting.

kronckew · 8th December 2014, 02:38 PM

a good reference: from our Brother ref. site

Malay world edged weapons

click on the spears picture...

Rick · 8th December 2014, 03:56 PM

The handle on the second example looks very much like the ferrule from a spear .

francantolin · 8th December 2014, 06:37 PM

Thank you all for comments , informations and internet links !!

I live in Switzerland so unfortunately really difficult to meet ...

As I can see in internet , the first one is called a lading terus ,

For the second, do you think the scabbard is okay with this blade or better if I look for any other more ''original'' ?!

Thank you
Best regards

Frankie

Henk · 14th December 2014, 11:59 AM

Don't change anything on these tombaks. Very nice find. Congrats!!

francantolin · 14th December 2014, 09:50 PM

Thank's a lot !!

A. G. Maisey · 15th December 2014, 12:05 AM

Regarding applicable names.

"Lading terus" is a Malay term, it is not a term that is used in Jawa.

Both these tombak would be called a tombak in Jawa.

If a completely new set of dress had been made they would probably be called a "tombak, stel golok" , at least in Solo that would be the case, and probably in the rest of Central Jawa too.

But the base, operative word would be tombak, this is because the blade of the tombak is the tombak, in the same way that the blade of the keris is the keris. It does not change its name simply because it changes its dress, if it is necessary, the dress is described separately.

From memory I think it was Gardner who gave us "lading terus"; in Malay as spoken on the Peninsula this term may make sense, but in Javanese & Indonesian it is nonsense.

One of the problems with the way in which the keris and the tombak are seen in the societies which have taken these items of cultural heritage from their place of origin is that the mental attitude towards them is somewhat different.

Frankly, neither of the sets of dress on these two tombak look to be indigenous to my eye. It is entirely possible that this dress may have been made in S.E.Asia, but I would guess, more likely by a dealer or collector in that area, than by the people who regard these things as cultural heritage.

8th December 2014, 10:23 AM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	indonesian blades ? Exact Origin ? Hello, I have bought these two knives in flea market and don't really know much about. The first seems to have a silver hilt (?), the blade and the scabbard seems to be more like a spear head ? Nice pamor ?... The second is strange because the blade seems to be a small antique (?) spear head mixed with a more recent hilt (silver ?) and scabbard. What do you think ? Age ? Origin ? Thank you Frankie Attached Images

8th December 2014, 06:37 PM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Thank you all for comments , informations and internet links !! I live in Switzerland so unfortunately really difficult to meet ... As I can see in internet , the first one is called a lading terus , For the second, do you think the scabbard is okay with this blade or better if I look for any other more ''original'' ?! Thank you Best regards Frankie Attached Images

8th December 2014, 12:35 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yes, they're spear blades (tombak). I would need to handle them to estimate age and close examination would be necessary to provide a supportable opinion on origin, however, from what I can see in the photos, the first one is possibly Javanese. The metuk (transition fitting between blade and shaft) appears to be missing from this first blade and it looks like it has been replaced with a brass fitting.

8th December 2014, 02:38 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	a good reference: from our Brother ref. site Malay world edged weapons click on the spears picture...

8th December 2014, 03:56 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The handle on the second example looks very much like the ferrule from a spear .

14th December 2014, 11:59 AM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Don't change anything on these tombaks. Very nice find. Congrats!!

14th December 2014, 09:50 PM	#7
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Thank's a lot !!

15th December 2014, 12:05 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Regarding applicable names. "Lading terus" is a Malay term, it is not a term that is used in Jawa. Both these tombak would be called a tombak in Jawa. If a completely new set of dress had been made they would probably be called a "tombak, stel golok" , at least in Solo that would be the case, and probably in the rest of Central Jawa too. But the base, operative word would be tombak, this is because the blade of the tombak is the tombak, in the same way that the blade of the keris is the keris. It does not change its name simply because it changes its dress, if it is necessary, the dress is described separately. From memory I think it was Gardner who gave us "lading terus"; in Malay as spoken on the Peninsula this term may make sense, but in Javanese & Indonesian it is nonsense. One of the problems with the way in which the keris and the tombak are seen in the societies which have taken these items of cultural heritage from their place of origin is that the mental attitude towards them is somewhat different. Frankly, neither of the sets of dress on these two tombak look to be indigenous to my eye. It is entirely possible that this dress may have been made in S.E.Asia, but I would guess, more likely by a dealer or collector in that area, than by the people who regard these things as cultural heritage.