Middle Eastern Mystery Dagger #2 - Bird Head

NovelsRus · 8th January 2012, 06:47 AM

Hi, all,
First a big thanks to all the forum members who helped me I.D. that first mystery dagger (chainpuri churi), esp. Espada, who owns one himself. (That makes two of us on the planet that I know of, Esp.)

Now for the next mystery. My wife tells me her late great-uncle in Arkansas, a retired antiques dealer, used this dagger for years and years as a letter-opener. I've since seen these on eBay and elsewhere (at ludicrously inflated prices, I M H O), so I ceased all letter-opening activities, polished it, sharpened it (Arkansas whetstone, what else?) and now present it to you. What IS this thing? A mini Jambiya? Kenshar? Or is it.....a letter-opener?

broadaxe · 8th January 2012, 06:49 PM

Very nice dagger, one of the best executed of this type that I've seen so far. It is a south Lebanese khanjar from the district of Jezzin. There is even a folding version with a similar hilt.

NovelsRus · 8th January 2012, 11:33 PM

Right you are, sir. Finally stumbled across the town of Jezzine, in southern Lebanon, as THE capitol of such bird-headed daggers. Seems the place is world-famous for silverware, flatware, cutlery, etc. And, since I learned this is actually a Khanjar, that makes it a Jezzine Lebanese Khanjar. Or letter opener.

Thanks for the help, Broadaxe. I appreciate it.

broadaxe · 9th January 2012, 08:32 PM

Glad I could be of help. How long is this khanjar? regular size is about 25cm or 10" overall. I think the bird hilt was ragarded as presentation, rather a daily carry dagger. To my best knowledge the personal arm in Lebanon and Upper Galilee (northern Israel) was a broader khanjar with a flat hilt, sometimes in the shape of simplified horsehead, like in the attached photo.

Martin Lubojacky · 10th January 2012, 12:10 AM

Here is a folding version I brought from Damascus a few years ago. I am glad to know where it is really comming from, now. Thanks
Regards,
Martin

NovelsRus · 18th January 2012, 05:20 PM

Broadaxe -- the dagger is 11" overall in the scabbard; out of it, the knife's 10.5".

As for the folding version, that has to rank as one of the coolest little folding blades I've ever seen. How long is that, when open? I must have one.

Martin Lubojacky · 19th January 2012, 01:54 AM

It is nit with me now, nevertheless not more than 14 cms open. I is very small pocket knife

Devadatta · 20th January 2012, 05:41 AM

These are mine

NovelsRus · 24th January 2012, 09:15 AM

Very cool daggers, Deva. In great shape, too. Now I've got to have another like your dark one. Can't have enough Jezzine Khanjars, can we?

Thanks for the post!

twdroppoint2 · 27th September 2013, 09:04 PM

Thread bump ... and first post

I thought I would add to an already existing thread, rather than start my own

I owned one of these knives (a fork and knife set, not a dagger) as well at one point ... I got mine from an individual who had served in Iran/Persia before the Revolution, and even knew the Shah. So I assumed it was a Persian trousse type of set.

Members from a knife forum I'm part of helped me with the Jezzine id however. My question is ... when did the bird motif first begin in that area ? Or in other words, at what point did they first start focussing on it iconically ? I'd like to know because I'm curious which came first ... the chicken or the egg so to speak. Did the design of the bird originate with them, or did they borrow it ? I've seen similar designed handles on so called "Bosnian" made knives, so I'm assuming a country like that copied the style as well, for example.

Thanks for any help

VANDOO · 30th September 2013, 07:22 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=lebanon

HERE IS A LINK TO A OLD POST ON THE SCARCE FISH DAGGER FROM THE SAME AREA. I THINK THERE IS AT LEAST TWO MORE POSTS ON KNIVES FROM THIS AREA IN THE ARCHIVES ONE LINKED IN THE ABOVE LINK BUT UNFORTUNATELY THE PICTURES ARE MISSING.

NovelsRus · 12th October 2013, 08:01 PM

Hi, all,

Recently asked about a rather dodgy khanjar on ebay, re the actual blade steel (since I couldn't see anything like a Wootz or Damascus pattern). The blade appeared to have been burnished or worn smooth, and looked to me like plain, old steel.

Seller said, "If you don't acid etch the blade the pattern will never appear on any damascus."

First thought? Rubbish! Damascus should show through regardless of "acid etching." Methinks this chap is the one doing the "acid" etching, and is plainly tripping out.

Wot say ye, all? Is the seller full of codswallop, or is there any legitimacy to his hallucinogenic, acid-induced ravings?

Rick · 12th October 2013, 08:32 PM

Well, I see a cold shut in your second photo ....

RSWORD · 12th October 2013, 11:07 PM

Actually, that statement is not rubbish. I have owned many a blade that the pattern was obscured from patina, rust, or even had been polished bright and after a polish and etch the pattern appeared. A good way to illustrate this is to loo at a wootz blade with an ill fitting scabbard. The scabbard will wear on the blade enough to obscure the pattern. If you polish this area and then etch it the pattern will return. Just don't store it back in the scabbard!

NovelsRus · 12th October 2013, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

...I have owned many a blade that the pattern was obscured from patina, rust, or even had been polished bright and after a polish and etch the pattern appeared. A good way to illustrate this is to look at a wootz blade with an ill-fitting scabbard. The scabbard will wear on the blade enough to obscure the pattern. If you polish this area and then etch it the pattern will return. Just don't store it back in the scabbard!

You know, that's pretty good advice, RSWORD. Before I start hurling comments about others doing acid, perhaps I should learn more about aged wootz and various obscurations it can undergo.

I still think this seller is tripping, tho. Can anyone spot anything like a Damascus or wootz pattern anywhere on that blade? I have some acid etching solution at home, maybe I should just buy the thing, etch the hell out of it, drop a few hits of acid and wait and see? Sounds good!

NovelsRus · 12th October 2013, 11:42 PM

Hey, Rick, could that mean this thing was forge or pattern welded?
Not a true Damascus but a would be?

Thx!
jf

Rick · 13th October 2013, 05:17 AM

'Damascus' is a pretty loose term these days .

A cold shut is probably rarer to see in wootz than in a pattern welded blade .

8th January 2012, 06:47 AM	#1
NovelsRus Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 41	Middle Eastern Mystery Dagger #2 - Bird Head Hi, all, First a big thanks to all the forum members who helped me I.D. that first mystery dagger (chainpuri churi), esp. Espada, who owns one himself. (That makes two of us on the planet that I know of, Esp.) Now for the next mystery. My wife tells me her late great-uncle in Arkansas, a retired antiques dealer, used this dagger for years and years as a letter-opener. I've since seen these on eBay and elsewhere (at ludicrously inflated prices, I M H O), so I ceased all letter-opening activities, polished it, sharpened it (Arkansas whetstone, what else?) and now present it to you. What IS this thing? A mini Jambiya? Kenshar? Or is it.....a letter-opener? Attached Images

8th January 2012, 11:33 PM	#3
NovelsRus Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 41	Broadaxe hits it dead-bang! Right you are, sir. Finally stumbled across the town of Jezzine, in southern Lebanon, as THE capitol of such bird-headed daggers. Seems the place is world-famous for silverware, flatware, cutlery, etc. And, since I learned this is actually a Khanjar, that makes it a Jezzine Lebanese Khanjar. Or letter opener. Thanks for the help, Broadaxe. I appreciate it.

9th January 2012, 08:32 PM	#4
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	No problem Glad I could be of help. How long is this khanjar? regular size is about 25cm or 10" overall. I think the bird hilt was ragarded as presentation, rather a daily carry dagger. To my best knowledge the personal arm in Lebanon and Upper Galilee (northern Israel) was a broader khanjar with a flat hilt, sometimes in the shape of simplified horsehead, like in the attached photo. Attached Images

10th January 2012, 12:10 AM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Here is a folding version I brought from Damascus a few years ago. I am glad to know where it is really comming from, now. Thanks Regards, Martin Attached Images

18th January 2012, 05:20 PM	#6
NovelsRus Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 41	In answer to Broadaxe, Re: Birdheaded Khanjar Broadaxe -- the dagger is 11" overall in the scabbard; out of it, the knife's 10.5". As for the folding version, that has to rank as one of the coolest little folding blades I've ever seen. How long is that, when open? I must have one.

8th January 2012, 06:49 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Very nice dagger, one of the best executed of this type that I've seen so far. It is a south Lebanese khanjar from the district of Jezzin. There is even a folding version with a similar hilt.

19th January 2012, 01:54 AM	#7
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	It is nit with me now, nevertheless not more than 14 cms open. I is very small pocket knife

20th January 2012, 05:41 AM	#8
Devadatta Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 118	These are mine

24th January 2012, 09:15 AM	#9
NovelsRus Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 41	Nice! Very cool daggers, Deva. In great shape, too. Now I've got to have another like your dark one. Can't have enough Jezzine Khanjars, can we? Thanks for the post!

27th September 2013, 09:04 PM	#10
twdroppoint2 Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 10	Thread bump ... and first post I thought I would add to an already existing thread, rather than start my own I owned one of these knives (a fork and knife set, not a dagger) as well at one point ... I got mine from an individual who had served in Iran/Persia before the Revolution, and even knew the Shah. So I assumed it was a Persian trousse type of set. Members from a knife forum I'm part of helped me with the Jezzine id however. My question is ... when did the bird motif first begin in that area ? Or in other words, at what point did they first start focussing on it iconically ? I'd like to know because I'm curious which came first ... the chicken or the egg so to speak. Did the design of the bird originate with them, or did they borrow it ? I've seen similar designed handles on so called "Bosnian" made knives, so I'm assuming a country like that copied the style as well, for example. Thanks for any help Attached Images Last edited by twdroppoint2; 27th September 2013 at 10:50 PM.

30th September 2013, 07:22 AM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=lebanon HERE IS A LINK TO A OLD POST ON THE SCARCE FISH DAGGER FROM THE SAME AREA. I THINK THERE IS AT LEAST TWO MORE POSTS ON KNIVES FROM THIS AREA IN THE ARCHIVES ONE LINKED IN THE ABOVE LINK BUT UNFORTUNATELY THE PICTURES ARE MISSING.

12th October 2013, 08:01 PM	#12
NovelsRus Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 41	Damascus pattern and acid etching/ Hi, all, Recently asked about a rather dodgy khanjar on ebay, re the actual blade steel (since I couldn't see anything like a Wootz or Damascus pattern). The blade appeared to have been burnished or worn smooth, and looked to me like plain, old steel. Seller said, "If you don't acid etch the blade the pattern will never appear on any damascus." First thought? Rubbish! Damascus should show through regardless of "acid etching." Methinks this chap is the one doing the "acid" etching, and is plainly tripping out. Wot say ye, all? Is the seller full of codswallop, or is there any legitimacy to his hallucinogenic, acid-induced ravings? Last edited by Rick; 13th October 2013 at 04:09 AM. Reason: active auction

12th October 2013, 08:32 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Well, I see a cold shut in your second photo ....

12th October 2013, 11:07 PM	#14
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Actually, that statement is not rubbish. I have owned many a blade that the pattern was obscured from patina, rust, or even had been polished bright and after a polish and etch the pattern appeared. A good way to illustrate this is to loo at a wootz blade with an ill fitting scabbard. The scabbard will wear on the blade enough to obscure the pattern. If you polish this area and then etch it the pattern will return. Just don't store it back in the scabbard!

12th October 2013, 11:42 PM	#16
NovelsRus Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 41	Cold shut Hey, Rick, could that mean this thing was forge or pattern welded? Not a true Damascus but a would be? Thx! jf

13th October 2013, 05:17 AM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	'Damascus' is a pretty loose term these days . A cold shut is probably rarer to see in wootz than in a pattern welded blade .