The Knife, Sacrifice and Meaning

[Tim Simmons]

In the light of the new Mel Gibson film, which I hope to get round to seeing, and more recent threads. I thought this title might be worth exploring. Members may have much more active understanding of such practises. I am interested in the knives used. The taking of another life has great meaning and yet many of the knives just seem to be a tool. As we know this is not always the case, take the elaborate flint knives used in the Middle Americas or the Ram Doa {if that is the correct spelling} on the Indian subcontinent. We all have different resources and references. Is head taking a form of sacrifice, not just an act of warfare or one and the same? I feel sure we could have the making of a classic thread.
I will start with this cropped picture from "Soul Of Africa, Magical Rites and Traditions" an inexpensive but fascinating book with some hair raising photography. In this picture the knife looks very ordinary but that does not mean it is not special? This child in Benin is protected from spiritual harm which could manifest itself as illness such as smallpox, in a white chalk circle. He is also sitting on an upturned ceramic "healing" pot. As the blood pours over the child evil and harm is drained away with the blood. So here goes.

[Emanuel]

Hi Tim,
I've been reading about head taking in Montenegro, and it seems that in that case it was a form of warfare with some overtones of sacrifice. To them the practice was undertaken to affect the future life of the killed individuals. I understand they saw head-taking as reducing the present as well as future numbers of the ennemy, perhaps with the thought that a decapitated soul would not be reborn into future generations of fighters. There are also ballads of groups taking many heads and presenting them to the local prince or even of placing them in the towers of the local monastery. A regular fighting knife was used. In cultures that use the Ram Dao, I think the act of head-taking is purely ceremonial and undertaken in a controlled setting. The Montenegrans fought and then took heads. It's interesting that Christians would do this...perhaps a practice harkening to pre-Christian traditions.

Now looking at the Dayak, their mandaus were also fighting weapons no? They didn't need a specific ceremonial weapon for decapitation since their head-taking was done in battle. Also interesting that they did it in order to bolster their own tribe with fighting souls, not necessarily to reduce the fighting capabilities of the ennemy.
So I think that cultures developed sacrificial knives and weapons when the sacrifice was done in controlled settings. That way the whole mistery of the ceremony could be imbued into the tool used as a sacred symbol.

[VANDOO]

MEL GIBSONS MOVIE IS A GOOD STORY AND VERY INTERESTING, IT HAS SOME SPECTACULAR COSTUMES AND SETS. IT DWELLS MOSTLY ON THE MOST SAVAGE ASPECTS OF AZTEC SOCIETY AND AS A RESULT IS VERY VIOLENT AND BLOODY. THE PART WHERE THE HEADS WERE REMOVED AND ROLLED DOWN THE STAIRS MIGHT BE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISORIENTING THE SPIRIT SO IT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CAUSE TROUBLE FOR THE TRIBE OR CITY.A SIMULAR PRACTICE IN AFRICA CAUSED THE HEAD TO BE HURLED THRU THE AIR BY A SAPELING FOR THE SAME REASON. THE HEADS WERE PLACED IN VERY LARGE SKULL RACKS HOLDING HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS. ROLLING THE BODIES DOWN THE LONG STAIRS MIGHT HAVE HELPED TENDERIZE THEM FOR DINNER. CORTEZ RECORDS THE LARGE SKULL RACKS HE SAW AND WAS VERY IMPRESSED. SKULL RACKS WERE ALSO USED IN NEW GUINEA BUT WERE NEVER AS LARGE. THE BODIES WERE EATEN IN BOTH SOCIETYS.

CEREMONIAL REGALIA AND SACRIFICIAL KNIVES WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PROPERTY OF THE PRIESTS OR PERHAPS THE RULER. I SUSPECT COMMON PEOPLE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO TOUCH THEM UNDER SEVERE PENALTY. AZTEC WARRIORS HAD THEIR FAVORITE WEAPONS AND SOME OBJECTS AND UNIFORM INDICATING THEIR CLAN,TOTUM AND STATUS AS A WARRIOR. THE ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS OF THE AMERICAS WERE VERY COLORFUL AND ARTISTIC EVEN IN THEIR MORE COMMON CRAFTS SO THE WORKMANSHIP ON RARE OR SACRED OBJECTS WAS EXCEPTIONAL.

THE IDEA OF SACRIFICE IS A PRIMATIVE ONE, IT BASICALY IS MAN TRYING TO TRADE SOMETHING TO NATURE (THE GODS) FOR WHAT THE SOCIETY OR TRIBE WANTS OR NEEDS. GOOD CROPS, HUNTING, RAIN, TO KEEP SICKNESS FROM THE VILLAGE OR TO INSTALL A SPIRIT TO GAURD A BUILDING, WAR CANOE ECT. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING MAN COULD THINK OF WAS OFTEN A HUMAN LIFE PERHAPS A SLAVE OR ENEMY BUT IF THE NEED WAS VERY GREAT A FAMILY MEMBER OR EVEN A KING. FORTUNATELY THAT DARK ASPECT OF MANKIND IS MOSTLY IN OUR PAST AND OFFERINGS USUALLY CONSIST OF THE BOUNTY OF THE EARTH IN THE FORM OF FOOD ,JEWELS ,GOLD, AND OTHER GOODS. WHILE SOME ANIMALS ARE STILL SACRIFICED AS THE TRADITIONS OF THE SOCIETY STILL REQUIRE IT, IT IS MORE RARE THESE DAYS. I JUST GIVE THANKS OR ASK FOR THESE THINGS IN PRAYER AND HAVE FAITH THAT IS ENOUGH AS THAT IS MY FAMILY AND SOCIETYS TRADITION.

[Montino Bourbon]

The movie was (supposedly) about the Maya, who were a lot less bloodthirsty than the Aztecs, according to the current view of history. Gibson has been criticized for playing fast and loose with facts, and I believe that his critics are right.

Certainly his movie "The passion of the Christ" should give pause to certain imperial wanna-be regimes who fancy themselves "bringers of democracy" to "Middle-Eastern" people. I'm a Roman, born in Rome, and I am so happy that Rome got over her imperial ambitions (through hard experience) and is now a normal, civilized country. I also happen to be an american citizen and veteran, by the way.

Rome had blood sacrifice, although not usually human. There was a very well-established protocol for doing that, with professionals officiating.

[Tim Simmons]

In Julian Jaacobs "The Nagas" there is mention that heads were not always won/taken in a war situation and opportunities were not always ever present. If I have understood, he suggests the spiritual need to take a head could biuld up and as a consequence the first hapless stranger could loss there head and power/stability would return to the community. The individual taking the head gets great prestige but other warriors would blood thier doa and receive some prestige. This, if not a formal ceremony does have elements akin to some sort shared communion. The fact that only one head could be effective and give prestige to the many does seem like a sacrificial act. It would appear that standard arms were used but became more special after the act or having been blooded.

Does anyone have a good Ram Doa?

[VANDOO]

THE MAYA WERE NOT THE ONES WHO MET THE FIRST EUROPEANS IN MEXICO IT WAS THE AZTECK BUT AFTER ALL IT IS ONLY A MOVIE SO ARTISTIC LISENCE IS ALLOWED.

THE LARGE SOCIETYS IN MID AND SOUTH AMERICA NEVER DOMESTICATED ANY LARGE ANIMALS AND THOSE THAT WERE THERE WERE HUNTED TO EXTINTION THE GIANT SLOTH BEING ONLY ONE EXAMPLE. THE TAPIER SURVIVED BECAUSE IT LIVED IN DEEP JUNGLE AND WAS SOLITARY AND VERY WARY AND FEW AND FAR IN BETWEEN IN THOSE TIMES. THE SOCIETY RELIED MOSTLY ON FARMING FOR ITS FOOD SUPPLEMENTED BY HUNTING AND FISHING. WHEN THE FAMINE SET IN BECAUSE OF CROP FAILURE THEY CAME TO RELY ON THE ONLY LARGE ANIMAL FOUND IN ABUNDANCE AS A FOOD SOURCE (MAN). THIS HAS HAPPENED IN OTHER TIMES AND COUNTRYS THRUOUT HISTORY AND SOMETIMES AS WITH THE AZTEC SACRIFICE TO THE GODS PLAYED A PART IN MAKEING IT ACCEPTABLE TO THE SOCIETY. UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T HAVE ANY PICTURES OF SACRIFICAL KNIVES ON THE COMPUTER AND NO SCANNER. BUT DO HAVE A FEW PICTURES I WILL SEE IF I CAN SHARE OF OTHER WEAPONS. A MOCHE COPPER MACE

[VANDOO]

AS USUAL MOST OF MY PICTURES DID NOT MAKE IT FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON. I WILL TRY AGAIN. FOOIE! I CAN ONLY GET ONE MORE TO COME THRU IT IS A INCA STONE MACE HEAD.

[Tim Simmons]

The copper mace is a most remarkable object however it was used. This picture of an aztec ceremonial knife was very graciously lent to the Royal Academy London for the exhibition "Aztecs" a few years ago by the Museo National de Antropologia Mexico City. The British Museum also has a spectacular example covered in turquoise and other stones but I prefer this example. Acts of cannibalism could be straying a little off subject but it is still worth mentioning. Ritual cannibalism has been found quite far into present day USA. I have not read anything to suggest cannibalism as a supplement to the staple diet in the Americas. I have not read that the sacrifices in the Aztec empire were in any way linked to sustenance except in a spiritual manner for the priesthood. It seems to have been worldwide historically. Even in fairly modern times in the South Pacific I am not sure there is strong evidence that cannabalism was like pork chop night at the Simpsons . However the practise has produced many of the worlds most outstanding art. IMHO

[Emanuel]

Fantastic dagger Tim,
Would that be a deity figure on the hilt, in the manner of the Tibetan phurpa? I find it interesting how these daggers slowly developed or acquired a personality of their own, becoming gods or spirits in their own right. The keris also comes to mind here. In time simple tools were no longer sufficient for the sacrifice, and the spirit-infused dagger took over as ritual objects...fascinating.

I recall a mention of Cretans practicing cannibalism as well at the end of Minoan civilization - when the flood created by the explosion of Santorini wiped out thier northern coast...

[VANDOO]

HUMAN SACRIFICE HAS BEEN COMMON IN MANS PAST IT IS EVEN MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE. THERE HAVE ALSO BEEN STORIES OF CANNIBALS SINCE ANCIENT TIMES CYCLOPS,ORGES ,ECT. OFTEN FALSE ACCUSATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE AGAINST A SOCIETY BY THEIR ENEMYS TO MAKE THEIR PEOPLE HATE AND FEAR THE ENEMY AND FIGHT BETTER FEARING THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT THEY HAD BEEN TOLD WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM IF THEY LOST. FALSE ACCUSATIONS HAVE ALSO BEEN WRITTEN BY THE WINNERS OF THE WAR OR CONQUEST TO EXCUSE THE TERRIBLE THINGS THEY HAD DONE.

TODAY IT IS POLITICALLY INCORRECT IN MY COUNTRY TO BRING UP SOME SUBJECTS REGARDLESS OF THE TRUTH OF IT. I SUSPECT THAT IS WHY IN THE MOVIE THIS WAS TIPTOED AROUND AND THE BODIES WERE SHOWN DISCARDED EVEN THOUGH THE PEOPLE WERE STARVING DUE TO CROP FAILURE AND SICKNESS. I DID SOME RESEARCH ON THE AZTEC MANY YEARS AGO AND LOOKED UP SOME OF THE WRITTEN REPORTS FROM CORTEZ TO SPAIN THEY MENTIONED THE SKULL RACKS, CANNIBALISM. ONE REPORT TOLD OF HOW HE AND HIS MEN WITNESSED THE SACRIFICE OF SOME OF THEIR GROUP THAT HAD BEEN CAPTURED AND WHAT HAPPENED IN DETAIL. THIS COULD HAVE BEEN FABRICATED FOR THE REASONS MENTIONED ABOVE BUT SUBSEQUENT ARCHEOLOGICAL DIGS HAVE TURNED UP LARGE NUMBERS OF HUMAN SKELETONS SHOWING THE KNIFE MARKS ON THE BONES INDICATING THEY HAD BEEN BUTCHERED. THIS IS NOT MENTIONED MUCH AS SOME GROUPS OR GOVERNMENTS WOULD BE OFFENDED BUT THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT IT DID OCCUR IN SOME AREAS, TRIBES AND TIMES THRUOUT HISTORY. DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT GO DO SOME RESEARCH, IT IS A INTERESTING SUBJECT AND ANCIENT AMERICAN CIVILIZATIONS WERE QUITE REMARKABLE. IT IS TOO BAD THAT SO MUCH OF THEIR HISTORY HAS BEEN DESTROYED OR SUPPRESSED BY THOSE WHO CONQURED THEM.
THE ARCHEOLOGISTS HAVE MADE SOME VERY REMARKABLE FINDS IN RECENT TIMES AND CONTINUE TO MAKE GREAT DISCOVERYS TODAY BUT IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THEY HAVE JUST SCRATCHED THE SURFACE IN SOME AREAS. SEE ARCHEOLOGY MAGAZINE, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC AND NOVA. THERE HAS BEEN NEW DISCOVERIES EVERY YEAR FOR MANY YEARS AND WITH THE NEW SATALITE TECKNOLOGY THIS COULD BE THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOM YEARS FOR ARCHEOLOGY IN THE AMERICAS.

[Emanuel]

Hi Vandoo,
I was wondering about the two mace heads you posted and the knife shown by Tim. I understand that most, if not all, pre-Colombian American weapons were carved from stone...what other sorts of weapons did Aztecs, Maya and Incas have? I imagine a whole range of clubs were used...

I have the impression that talk of cannibalism is taboo in most western cultures. There's something about it that crosses the line of imfamy I guess.

[VANDOO]

I HAVE PICTURES OF SEVERAL STONE AND JADE MACE HEADS, ATAL ATAL (SPEAR THROWERS) AND A GOLD COVERED CEREMONIAL MACE AS WELL AS SOME OTHER THINGS BUT COULD NOT GET THEM TO COME THRU IN MY POSTS. I SUSPECT THEY PROBABLY NEED RESIZED PERHAPS I CAN GET MY DAUGHTER TO SEE WHY I CAN'T INSTALL THE SOFTWARE THAT WAS IN A PREVIOUS FORUM POST SO I CAN TRY AND POST THEM AGAIN. I AM SOMEWHAT TECKNOLOGICALLY CHALLENGED AND HAVE TROUBLE FIGURING OUT HOW THESE GADGITS WORK. THE MOVIE DID SHOW A GOOD RANGE OF THE TYPES OF WEAPONS THEY HAD AND HOW THEY WERE USED.

[Emanuel]

I'll make a point of seeing this movie then. I had read about jade weapons and maks, I'll look some more online. There was something specifically spiritual/religious about jade wasn't there?

Try this: http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...ertoySetup.exe
It will install automatically to the system, then you only have to right-click on the picture files in their folders and select "Resize Pictures" you'll have a choice between four sizes.

[Emanuel]

I just watched Apocalypto, and there is indeed a lot of food for thought. I liked the myriad jade artefacts they used. The obsidian knives and axes were amazing, and particularly the sword club -macuahitl- a very interesting weapon: "the prefered weapon of Aztec armies. Carved of hardwood, it was fitted with obsidian blades along the two cutting edges. The weapon was as sharp as a razor and intended to maim or otherwise disable an enemy so he could be captured."

They make me wonder at how strong jade must have been to be useful as a weapon.


At a number of points in the movie, the head mayan/aztec slave-hunter brandishes and uses a very nice obsidian blade with bone handle. It seemed like he employed it specifically for some meaningful kills, not the regular slaughter. So I guess a specific weapon can gain meaning as more than a tool over time, as its performance keeps demonstrating its power and usefulness.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

Rome had blood sacrifice, although not usually human. There was a very well-established protocol for doing that, with professionals officiating.

Ah, but you're forgetting that the great games evolved out of funeral rites, and the deaths engendered by them were considered, at least initially, as a form of sacrifice. Later it devolved into simple bloodsport as the masses became addicted to the spectacle, but the foundation of the practice was religious in nature.

The collecting of heads as trophies/religious objects is one of the oldest in human nature; examples have been found in paleolithic sites dating back 30,000 years where bear skulls were set up in a ceremonial nature, and some form of sacrifice, whether ritual or actual, is part of virtually every religion known to man, even Christianity.

As for the significance of specific weapons being used for sacrificial purposes as opposed to picking up whatever's handy, I imagine it's an evolving situation. No doubt the first Aztec priests to practice human sacrifice used whatever blade was handy; as the practice evolved and the society changed specific blades would have become part of the priest's regalia, imbued with significance and power by their repeated use in ritual.

In my own faith it is tradition that for a person to pass into Valhalla they must die with a sword in their hand (how much of that is true and how much is Hollywood is subject to debate). Originally of course the belief was that warriors were chosen on the battlefield by the Valkyrie to join the Einherjar, the army waiting to fight with the Aesir at Ragnarok, the Norse version of the Apocalypse. These days the average person doesn't have much chance to fall in battle with a sword in their hand, so the practice has evolved that, when possible, the knidred will make sure that one of their brethren has a sword physically in their hands, or at least in their presence, when they pass away, our version of last rites.

I currently have hanging on my wall such a sword that was in my best friend's hands when he passed away. Prior to his death it wasn't anything special as such swords go; it was hand forged by a smith who makes a living making swords, but it was no different than a hundred other such swords he's made. Afterwards I commissioned the same smith to make it into a memorial sword, with brasswork and runes to indicate its history. In the future it may be used again as a ritual blade, but it will never again be 'just another' sword.

Fenris

[Emanuel]

Hello Fenris (Thor must've been quite angry at your namesake )

Interesting what you say about your last rites, I didn't know such traditions were still alive, and I'm glad they are. For us (Romanian Orthodox) we hold that one mus not die without having a lit candle in hand or close by...to light the way for the soul perhaps, but it's seen as an unfortunate thing if one dies without a candle.

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello Fenris (Thor must've been quite angry at your namesake )

Interesting what you say about your last rites, I didn't know such traditions were still alive, and I'm glad they are. For us (Romanian Orthodox) we hold that one mus not die without having a lit candle in hand or close by...to light the way for the soul perhaps, but it's seen as an unfortunate thing if one dies without a candle.

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

Hello, Emanuel,
How traditions and superstitions evolve is a fascinating study, one that many anthropologists and behaviorists devote their careers to. Why certain things are considered lucky or unlucky are snapshots of how religions evolve as a whole.

I work in the retail environment, and one of the things I find amusing is the cycle of seasonal decorations we sell every year, especially the secular trappings of religious holidays. Modern neopagans and heathen have an ongoing struggle to rediscover what our ancestors held sacred and why. As with many suppressed religions, the documentation is scarce and extremely fragmented, and we often have to turn to clues that are buried in folk traditions as to what the pre-Christian peoples held sacred.

Take Easter for example. I don't know how the people celebrate it in Rome (or Romania), but in the US there's a huge industry around it, focusing on candy and Easter Egg hunts, with the motif of baby rabbits and freshly hatched chicks everywhere you look. I looked very carefully last year, and despite its significance as a Christian holiday, found a total of one chocolate cross. Everything else was devoted to bunnies and chicks, both of which are fertility symbols sacred to Eostre, or Ishtar, a Pre-Christian Goddess of Spring.

There are numerous other examples, none of them very surprising. When a new religion moves in and dominates a region, especially when it is enforced from above instead of converting from below (the leaders of a people mandating that their subjects convert) the festivals and symbols are often grafted onto the new religion. The same practices continue onward, but under new names.

Now as to how this relates to weapons, well I've seen comments that there have been occasional discussions of so-called 'satanic' daggers on this board. The question that needs to be raised about any such daggers is not what the symbology represents in modern context, but what it represented in the context of whoever created it. I've seen Buddhist art objects covered in sunwheels, also known as swastikas, but I don't think anyone believes that the Dalai Llama was a Nazi. And Catholic communion involves the ritual transubstantiation of wine and bread into the blood and body of Christ, but I don't think anyone serious believes that the Apostles were cannibals. So any symbols, shapes or forms a blade or hilt might take need to be studied objectively and researched VERY carefully before any conclusions can be reached.

Fenris

[Emanuel]

If the blade of the sacrificial knife is removed and refitted to another banal handle, it loses its spiritual/sacrificial meaning does it not? Conversely, the sacrificial knife may be replaced by any other object as long as it does the job and can be integrated into ceremonial gear and aesthetics. Do the cultures that still carry out sacrifices imbue a certain spirit into the tool as the Indonesians do with the keris for example? Is there the equivalent of an Isi in the knife used by the Benin witch/priest?

I agree Fenris, Easter is a peculiar holiday, with long forgotten and disregarded meaning, but then I often feel it has passed from cult to pure consumerism. Us Orthodox we have a ritual with painted eggs - ideally red to signify the blood of Christ. The chocolate things now sold everywhere are a totally different thing unfortunately.

Emanuel

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Manolo

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

It is fascinating how rituals evolve and are perpetuated.

A woman I know lived in an apartment complex. One cold morning she got in her car and when she started the engine she heard a short-lived scream from under the hood ("bonnet" for you Brits).

She opened the hood and saw the remains of a cat. Apparently the animal. seeking warmth had gotten into the engine the previous night after she arrived home, fell asleep and was caught in the fan blades when she started the engine the next morning.

She was very afraid this would happen again, so every morning thereafter, before she started the engine, she would thump the hood with her hands a few times to be sure another cat had not fallen asleep on her engine.

Chlidren nearby saw this and asked her why she was doing this. Not wanting to tell them about the cat's horrible death, she told them that she was just "Waking up the car's engine."

Soon after, she noticed that children all over her apartment complex were thumping their families' car hoods to "wake up the engine" before the family left on an outing.

Thus a new ritual began.

[VANDOO]

WHEN FLINT BLADES BECAME DULL THEY WERE RE-KNAPPED TO SHARPEN THE EDGES SO EACH TIME THIS WAS DONE THE BLADE GOT SMALLER AND SOMETIMES CHANGED SHAPE A BIT. SO I GUESS THAT BLADES ON SACRIFICAL KNIVES WERE REPLACED AND THE FANCY HANDLE MAY HAVE BEEN REUSED OR PERHAPS REPLACED BY AN ENTIRELY NEW KNIFE
I SUSPECT THE BLADE WAS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS THE HANDLE AS IT WAS MERELY THE SHARP PART OF THE TOOL AND ALL THE SYMBOLISM AND SPIRITUAL POWER WAS IN THE DECORATED HANDLE AND THE PRIEST. I HAVE NEVER READ OF THE DISCOVERY BY ARCHEOLOGISTS OF LOTS OF DISCARDED SACRIFICAL KNIVES SO THAT MAKES ME THINK THE HANDLES WERE REUSED OR PERHAPS THE ENTIRE KNIFE WAS DESTROYED

THERE WERE ALSO SOME VERY FANCY CEREMONIAL ECCENTRIC FLINTS THAT WERE REAL WORKS OF ART AND NEVER RESHARPENED SO THEY WOULD HAVE NEVER SEEN ACTUAL USE. THERE ARE 9 SUPERB EXAMPLES IN ONE OF THE OLD NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINES I DON'T HAVE TIME TO GO THRU MY REFRENCES TO FIND IT BUT IT DOES HAVE A CEREMONIAL KNIFE ON THE FRONT COVER. PERHAPS I CAN LOOK LATER .

IT WOULD SEEM THE HUMAN RACE DOES TRY TO HANG ON THEIR OLD TRADITIONS,BELIEFS AND BEHAVIORS. PERHAPS THAT EXPLAINS WHY MANY OF US SEEM TO REVERT TO BABOONS FROM TIME TO TIME ESPECIALLY WHEN DRIVING A CAR

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

IT WOULD SEEM THE HUMAN RACE DOES TRY TO HANG ON THEIR OLD TRADITIONS,BELIEFS AND BEHAVIORS. PERHAPS THAT EXPLAINS WHY MANY OF US SEEM TO REVERT TO BABOONS FROM TIME TO TIME ESPECIALLY WHEN DRIVING A CAR

ROTFLMAO!

[Tim Simmons]

This fist pic being an old picture from turn of the 19/20 century India. Is that a special knife? or just an agricultural tool? could an agricultural tool be significant? Compere with the second pic from Africa.


In this cropped picture, to concentrate on the knife. Sacred objects are being rejuvenated. The knife appears to very ordinary. The differences between an ornate and designated knife might be related to the degree of specialist personnel in the belief system and the gravity of the local.

[Emanuel]

Hello Tim,
The Indian knife looks like a Mopla knife, but it could be agricultural. I guess the beaheading is beast done by concave edges - as demonstrated by khukri and kora in Nepal - so the mopla was chosen to behead the goat simply for its effectiveness...maybe.
I'm thinking that the degree of spirituality or specialty attributeds to the knife varies depending on the context: a relatively poor society or group may use any available tool, while a richer one may use specifically designated (maybe blessed/sanctified?) blades.

Vandoo, could the handles themselves act as deities? I mean could they be used separate from the blade, simply as devotional sculptures/amulets? That leads me to ask "how different is a handle from a sacrificial knife from a statue, if at all?" For example, I have a little tourist statue from Mexico, carved in soapstone, that looks a lot like the knife posted by Tim.

Emanuel

[Tim Simmons]

They do things differently there. This is a rather staged photo from the late 19th century. A time when a section of British society was and still is deeply fascinated and romantic about the Islamic world. The picture is near east Syria? Look closely, is that a saber? I cannot see a guard? could this be a special blade for halal method? Even if a staged photo I see no reason that it was not done as shown. Bye and bye I live not even 10miles from the first mosque in the UK, in a town called Woking built in 1889. No black pudding for breakfast then.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This fist pic being an old picture from turn of the 19/20 century India. Is that a special knife? or just an agricultural tool? could an agricultural tool be significant? Compere with the second pic from Africa.

Hi, Tim;

I found this picture very interesting , especially after I compared it to this item that showed up today:



The blade is significantly smaller, but what little of the hilt that can be seen looks similar. Also, the blade is sharpened on the inner edge only, making it perfect for a drawcut across the throat of a sacrifice. The engraving on either side of the blade resembles a stylized century plant, which I know some people viewed as a symbol of rebirth (I don't know if that belief was held in India or not.) The outer curve has a false edge for about two-thirds edge, but is not sharp.

Fenris

[Rick]

That looks like a Chilean Corvo .
Scroll down.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=corvo

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Rick

That looks like a Chilean Corvo .
Scroll down.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=corvo

Thanks! I've learned more about my collection in the last week or so than I learned in the last year!
Fenris

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The copper mace is a most remarkable object however it was used. This picture of an aztec ceremonial knife was very graciously lent to the Royal Academy London for the exhibition "Aztecs" a few years ago by the Museo National de Antropologia Mexico City. The British Museum also has a spectacular example covered in turquoise and other stones but I prefer this example. Acts of cannibalism could be straying a little off subject but it is still worth mentioning. Ritual cannibalism has been found quite far into present day USA. I have not read anything to suggest cannibalism as a supplement to the staple diet in the Americas. I have not read that the sacrifices in the Aztec empire were in any way linked to sustenance except in a spiritual manner for the priesthood. It seems to have been worldwide historically. Even in fairly modern times in the South Pacific I am not sure there is strong evidence that cannabalism was like pork chop night at the Simpsons . However the practise has produced many of the worlds most outstanding art. IMHO

On a South Pacific island you are surrounded by fish. But how do you find enough protein in a desert?
Apparently, human flesh was the main source of protein for both ancient Aztecs and Anasazi . Human sacrifice in these societies was a perfect blend of supernatural mumbo-jumbo and practical dietology.

[Tim Simmons]

Ariel can you back that statement up {human flesh the main source of protein} Guinea Pigs, Dogs, Rabbits and so on. Would have made a very disturbing shambles next to the flowers stalls in Mexico city.

I have been thinking about self decapitation {not literally} with a knife like a spokeshave as mentioned in Elgoods Hindu Arms. Is this posible? can one finish the job once the spinal cord is cut? Sounds like fun.

[Bill M]

The Mayans were primarily an agricultural people with very little meat of any kind. The meat they did have was usually wild game and considered a great luxury.