Keris from east or west java ?

max · 19th February 2013, 10:07 PM

Hello,

I have recently aquired a keris. But I am not sure of its from west java or from east java. It's seems to have some feature's specific to west java blades, and some specific to east java. When I look at the surface of th blade it looks without pamor or at least very few, I think it will be pamor keleng.

Henk · 19th February 2013, 10:10 PM

Pictures???

max · 19th February 2013, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max

Hello,

I have recently aquired a keris. But I am not sure of its from west java or from east java. It's seems to have some feature's specific to west java blades, and some specific to east java. When I look at the surface of th blade it looks without pamor or at least very few, I think it will be pamor keleng.

Thanks henk, for quick respons
You see I am strubbeling with the attechment sorry.

Thanks for the help, my format din't fit the forum size.( I took them with me Iphone ). So I changed the size, the result is less clear picturs, and the overall pic from the keris other are to big, I am so sorry.

I would be glad If I could some comment bij this two pictures of my keris.

Bjorn · 19th February 2013, 10:49 PM

You are not the only one who had trouble figuring out how to attach pics on these forums (yes, I'm referring to myself

). Check the following topic for instructions on how to post pictures and you'll have them up in no time: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

A. G. Maisey · 20th February 2013, 12:16 AM

The mendak is Madura/East Jawa.

The blade is out of stain and lacks rondha. I'm not prepared to classify this blade at this time.

We might be able to say a little more when we see the keris.

The images posted need to be at least resized.

I resize in Photoshop, but it can be done in any of the photo editing software. Picasa is an easy program to use, and yesterday my attention was drawn to another free downlaod, GIMP, that looks to be pretty good.

Good luck.

drdavid · 20th February 2013, 11:12 AM

For what it is worth, the quickest simplest thing I have found to resize images is a little program called Prish Image resizer, (freeware, just google it). It does nothing but resize but once you have it installed you just right click on any image and it gives you 4 standard image sizes (vga etc) and a custom resize option. Much quicker than a multi-featured image program like photoshop, gimp, picassa etc
cheers
DrD

max · 20th February 2013, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

For what it is worth, the quickest simplest thing I have found to resize images is a little program called Prish Image resizer, (freeware, just google it). It does nothing but resize but once you have it installed you just right click on any image and it gives you 4 standard image sizes (vga etc) and a custom resize option. Much quicker than a multi-featured image program like photoshop, gimp, picassa etc
cheers
DrD

Everbody Thanks a lot for all the help, I have been strubbeling to get the pictures in the right size. But at last it worked.

Here are the rest of the pictures. I hope it gives a better reflection of the keris. It is alway difficult to say something about a keris. When you dont have them in your one hands.

Henk · 20th February 2013, 08:31 PM

If i look at the dress I would say Surakarta Solo. I love the wood. About the pamor you can say anything. You should stain the blade with warangan. Then you can see the pamor and don't be surprised you will see a complete other pamor. What you see now and mistake for pamor are the lines of forging.

A. G. Maisey · 20th February 2013, 10:31 PM

Stylistically this scabbard and hilt are definitely Surakarta, however, the workmanship and presentation does not look like Jawa Tengah to my eyes. From the photos I cannot give a supportable opinion, I'd need to handle it before I could be certain, but my immediate reaction is that this scabbard and hilt were made in East Jawa, possibly Surabaya.

Henk · 21st February 2013, 09:10 PM

Alan, I had also some doubts about it although it is stylistically Surakarta. Would you be so kind to enlighten us why you think it is East Jawa and where it differs with Surakarta for workmanship and presentation. I can't put a finger on it why i hestitated as well.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd February 2013, 03:40 AM

Henk, as I have already said:- "from the photos I cannot give a supportable opinion", thus what I am saying now is only based on an overall impression, to be relatively certain I would need to handle it. If I handled it I'd be looking at things like the way the gandar was fitted to the atasan, the cross section and weight of the gandar, the way the sculpting of the atasan had been done, how thick the atasan was, how the inside of the atasan was finished --- all detail, detail, detail, and things that simply cannot be seen from photos. Similarly with the hilt, I'd be looking to see if it fitted a more or less standard Solo blak, I'd be looking at the form from front and rear, I'd be looking at the cecekan.

My overall impression was formed because the scabbard has a sort of a clumsy appearance, it seems not to flow very well, almost as if the maker was struggling to produce a copy of something, rather than working from an ingrained pattern in his own head. Additionally, it is quite unusual to find fairly recent Solo wrongkos that are not fitted with a pendok. Much older Solo wrongkos usually come with a pendok too. An all wood gandar without covering is not usual with this form of wrongko.

Jean · 22nd February 2013, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Additionally, it is quite unusual to find fairly recent Solo wrongkos that are not fitted with a pendok. Much older Solo wrongkos usually come with a pendok too. An all wood gandar without covering is not usual with this form of wrongko.

I fully agree with Alan, the presence of a pendok or not is a very distinctive indicator of the origin of the sheath. And accordingly the gayaman sheaths from East Java have a thicker gandar (and often atasan) than those from Solo.

Regards

Henk · 22nd February 2013, 10:57 AM

I realize completely Alan that giving an opinion from pictures is very hard. Still, just like you i had a feeling of hestitation. You're experience is much greater than the experience of the most of us.
I really appreciate that despite you couldn't give a supportable opinion you gave your opinion from what you notices from the pictures. Now i know why i hestitated and what i saw. just like you i know that we cann't handle it and look at the details.

I learned today and for that i'm grateful.

19th February 2013, 10:07 PM	#1
max Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 12	Keris from east or west java ? Hello, I have recently aquired a keris. But I am not sure of its from west java or from east java. It's seems to have some feature's specific to west java blades, and some specific to east java. When I look at the surface of th blade it looks without pamor or at least very few, I think it will be pamor keleng. Attached Images Last edited by max; 20th February 2013 at 06:14 PM.

19th February 2013, 10:10 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Pictures???

19th February 2013, 10:49 PM	#4
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	You are not the only one who had trouble figuring out how to attach pics on these forums (yes, I'm referring to myself ). Check the following topic for instructions on how to post pictures and you'll have them up in no time: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

20th February 2013, 12:16 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	The mendak is Madura/East Jawa. The blade is out of stain and lacks rondha. I'm not prepared to classify this blade at this time. We might be able to say a little more when we see the keris. The images posted need to be at least resized. I resize in Photoshop, but it can be done in any of the photo editing software. Picasa is an easy program to use, and yesterday my attention was drawn to another free downlaod, GIMP, that looks to be pretty good. Good luck.

20th February 2013, 11:12 AM	#6
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	For what it is worth, the quickest simplest thing I have found to resize images is a little program called Prish Image resizer, (freeware, just google it). It does nothing but resize but once you have it installed you just right click on any image and it gives you 4 standard image sizes (vga etc) and a custom resize option. Much quicker than a multi-featured image program like photoshop, gimp, picassa etc cheers DrD

20th February 2013, 08:31 PM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	If i look at the dress I would say Surakarta Solo. I love the wood. About the pamor you can say anything. You should stain the blade with warangan. Then you can see the pamor and don't be surprised you will see a complete other pamor. What you see now and mistake for pamor are the lines of forging.

20th February 2013, 10:31 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Stylistically this scabbard and hilt are definitely Surakarta, however, the workmanship and presentation does not look like Jawa Tengah to my eyes. From the photos I cannot give a supportable opinion, I'd need to handle it before I could be certain, but my immediate reaction is that this scabbard and hilt were made in East Jawa, possibly Surabaya.

21st February 2013, 09:10 PM	#10
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, I had also some doubts about it although it is stylistically Surakarta. Would you be so kind to enlighten us why you think it is East Jawa and where it differs with Surakarta for workmanship and presentation. I can't put a finger on it why i hestitated as well.

22nd February 2013, 03:40 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Henk, as I have already said:- "from the photos I cannot give a supportable opinion", thus what I am saying now is only based on an overall impression, to be relatively certain I would need to handle it. If I handled it I'd be looking at things like the way the gandar was fitted to the atasan, the cross section and weight of the gandar, the way the sculpting of the atasan had been done, how thick the atasan was, how the inside of the atasan was finished --- all detail, detail, detail, and things that simply cannot be seen from photos. Similarly with the hilt, I'd be looking to see if it fitted a more or less standard Solo blak, I'd be looking at the form from front and rear, I'd be looking at the cecekan. My overall impression was formed because the scabbard has a sort of a clumsy appearance, it seems not to flow very well, almost as if the maker was struggling to produce a copy of something, rather than working from an ingrained pattern in his own head. Additionally, it is quite unusual to find fairly recent Solo wrongkos that are not fitted with a pendok. Much older Solo wrongkos usually come with a pendok too. An all wood gandar without covering is not usual with this form of wrongko.

22nd February 2013, 10:57 AM	#13
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I realize completely Alan that giving an opinion from pictures is very hard. Still, just like you i had a feeling of hestitation. You're experience is much greater than the experience of the most of us. I really appreciate that despite you couldn't give a supportable opinion you gave your opinion from what you notices from the pictures. Now i know why i hestitated and what i saw. just like you i know that we cann't handle it and look at the details. I learned today and for that i'm grateful.