INTERESTING Ottoman (?) sword.... very old... comments?

Valjhun · 7th December 2006, 10:44 PM

Dear Memebers,

What do you think about that sword? Any ideas of its origin, period and so on.... (things as usualy, i'm in a hurry right now

katana · 8th December 2006, 02:53 PM

Hi Valjhun,
found this

http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...tore.html#item

Looks to be similar....hope it helps

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2006, 09:37 PM

Hi Valjhun,
This is a breathtaking piece!! which appears to be an Italian form, prior to the fully developed guards and probably dates end of the 15th c. according to typological examples found. In "Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (A.V.B.Norman, London, 1980) a similar hilt is shown as Italian c.1475-1525 (shown on p.82 as hilt form #18). Norman notes an example of this hilt is held in the Doges palace in Venice (catalog G690).
In "Armi Bianche Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975, pl.145-47) these hilts are shown as Venetian c.1475-80.
It should be noted that these assymetrical form hilts were the basis in general for the later basket hilts known as schiavona, and the pommel form also is key to those seen on the schiavona. The schiavona was of course the distinct sword used by the Dalmatian guards who acted as guards as the Doge's palace in Venice.
The interesting marks with star and crescent may be Italian markings. In Boccia & Coelho (op.cit) p.358 there are blade markings which include the crescent moon, although they appear with either one or two crosses of the cross and orb form. I have not yet found one with the star, but would not be surprised for this to be included in such markings. The markings described are both noted as from Venice c.1500-1510.
I know I have seen a similar sword to this, especially by the distinctly shaped escutcheon on the crossguard, but as yet have not found it.

Now....please tell us where you have found this sword!!!

All the best,
Jim

Valjhun · 9th December 2006, 02:30 PM

Thanks Jim,

I also thought of a pre-schiavona type of venetian sword when saw the immages. Especially the pommel talks in that favour, beeing a predecessor of the typical Schiavona cat head pommel.

The sword is not in my possesion (yet). I'll do my best to get that medieval piece in my collection. Then I'll attach more photos.

It was found underground with a metal detector in the italian region of Northern Friuli (not so far away from Venice).

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2006, 05:29 PM

Thats excellent Valjhun!!
Outstanding provenance, exactly what is needed in studying history and development of weapons. Thank you very much for sharing this, and please keep us posted OK.
All the best,
Jim

ariel · 9th December 2006, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Thanks Jim,

I also thought of a pre-schiavona type of venetian sword when saw the immages. Especially the pommel talks in that favour, beeing a predecessor of the typical Schiavona cat head pommel.

The sword is not in my possesion (yet). I'll do my best to get that medieval piece in my collection. Then I'll attach more photos.

It was found underground with a metal detector in the italian region of Northern Friuli (not so far away from Venice).

When this sword is repatriated to Slovenia

send us better pics. Great find!

Andrew · 10th December 2006, 05:22 AM

Crescent and star at the forte? What's that about, I wonder?

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2006, 09:11 PM

Hi Andrew,
I think thats where the initial heading for this thread came from, with the obvious association of the familiar Ottoman symbols. I think this marking is likely from the Italian maker, at least as noted in Boccia & Coelho (op.cit.) it is shown that the crescent did appear on Italian blades, in this case from Venice. Still looking for one that incorporates the star. The complexities of all these markings probably derive from workmans guilds, but later became associated with talismanic symbolism in varying degree.
All the best,
Jim

Andrew · 11th December 2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Andrew,
I think thats where the initial heading for this thread came from, with the obvious association of the familiar Ottoman symbols. I think this marking is likely from the Italian maker, at least as noted in Boccia & Coelho (op.cit.) it is shown that the crescent did appear on Italian blades, in this case from Venice. Still looking for one that incorporates the star. The complexities of all these markings probably derive from workmans guilds, but later became associated with talismanic symbolism in varying degree.
All the best,
Jim

Doh! That's what I get for posting without looking.

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2006, 09:49 PM

Sorry I sounded so blunt in my response Andrew, not intended.
Its not like you aren't in circuit breaker overload trying to keep up with all the activity here, so quite understandable

All the best my friend,
Jim

Matchlock · 8th July 2012, 05:14 PM

Hi Valjuhn,

I found your thread only today.

As Jim has sad, this is a Venetian sword, which is confirmed by your statement that it was excavated near Friuli. It is of Venetian make and dates from the late 15th c., ca. 1480-90.

You will identify your type of sword among a group of four displayed on the right in a photo from the Doges Palace at Venice; they are dealt with in Armi Bianche, 1975 (attachments).

Medieval Venetian swords of slightly differing, more common type are referred to in
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...114#post142114

Best,
Michael

ariel · 8th July 2012, 05:25 PM

Now I understand the origins of Nimcha much better :-)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th July 2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Valjhun,
This is a breathtaking piece!! which appears to be an Italian form, prior to the fully developed guards and probably dates end of the 15th c. according to typological examples found. In "Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (A.V.B.Norman, London, 1980) a similar hilt is shown as Italian c.1475-1525 (shown on p.82 as hilt form #18). Norman notes an example of this hilt is held in the Doges palace in Venice (catalog G690).
In "Armi Bianche Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975, pl.145-47) these hilts are shown as Venetian c.1475-80.
It should be noted that these assymetrical form hilts were the basis in general for the later basket hilts known as schiavona, and the pommel form also is key to those seen on the schiavona. The schiavona was of course the distinct sword used by the Dalmatian guards who acted as guards as the Doge's palace in Venice.
The interesting marks with star and crescent may be Italian markings. In Boccia & Coelho (op.cit) p.358 there are blade markings which include the crescent moon, although they appear with either one or two crosses of the cross and orb form. I have not yet found one with the star, but would not be surprised for this to be included in such markings. The markings described are both noted as from Venice c.1500-1510.
I know I have seen a similar sword to this, especially by the distinctly shaped escutcheon on the crossguard, but as yet have not found it.

Now....please tell us where you have found this sword!!!

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim and Valjhun et al~ I was just flicking through the amazing thread on the european by Matchlock on Schiavona since I am convinced that this weapon rehilted appears on Ethiopian and other Red Sea derivatives in its two edged form. (and that this may be the blade we see in certain museums rehilted on long hilts and others in that region) Then right out of the blue comes this thread with an absolute show stopper !! An Italian Job !! and thanks to Matchlock he is onto this one with such well informed backup and photos. I feel certain that this sword is the key to the door for much that went on in that region.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

VANDOO · 9th July 2012, 03:09 AM

VERY GOOD INFORMATION

A COMBINATION OF A FEW OF THESE THREADS IN THE ETH. AND EURO. FORUMS RELATED TO SCHIAVONA WOULD MAKE A GOOD REFERENCE. RELATED TO SCHIAVONA

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th July 2012, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

VERY GOOD INFORMATION

A COMBINATION OF A FEW OF THESE THREADS IN THE ETH. AND EURO. FORUMS RELATED TO SCHIAVONA WOULD MAKE A GOOD REFERENCE. RELATED TO SCHIAVONA

Salaams VANDOO ~
Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 and at #320 where I am observing what I believe are Schiavona styles that have slipped down the Red Sea and have been rehilted. Perhaps you can add weight to the discussion please. It appears that so far the styles are the two edged version and which I believe have been confused with Omani dancing swords.
Omani dancing sword are round tipped and very flexible to 90 degree bend between about the point to last third of blade. It seems to me that these Schiavona types are thicker, with pointed blades, hilted in Arabia, Yemen and Ethiopia are the Schiavona two edge type.
I have seen the discussion on Schiavonas on the European and follow its development closely.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

8th July 2012, 05:14 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Valjuhn, I found your thread only today. As Jim has sad, this is a Venetian sword, which is confirmed by your statement that it was excavated near Friuli. It is of Venetian make and dates from the late 15th c., ca. 1480-90. You will identify your type of sword among a group of four displayed on the right in a photo from the Doges Palace at Venice; they are dealt with in Armi Bianche, 1975 (attachments). Medieval Venetian swords of slightly differing, more common type are referred to in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...114#post142114 Best, Michael Attached Images

7th December 2006, 10:44 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	INTERESTING Ottoman (?) sword.... very old... comments? Dear Memebers, What do you think about that sword? Any ideas of its origin, period and so on.... (things as usualy, i'm in a hurry right now Attached Images

8th December 2006, 02:53 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Valjhun, found this http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...tore.html#item Looks to be similar....hope it helps

8th December 2006, 09:37 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Valjhun, This is a breathtaking piece!! which appears to be an Italian form, prior to the fully developed guards and probably dates end of the 15th c. according to typological examples found. In "Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (A.V.B.Norman, London, 1980) a similar hilt is shown as Italian c.1475-1525 (shown on p.82 as hilt form #18). Norman notes an example of this hilt is held in the Doges palace in Venice (catalog G690). In "Armi Bianche Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975, pl.145-47) these hilts are shown as Venetian c.1475-80. It should be noted that these assymetrical form hilts were the basis in general for the later basket hilts known as schiavona, and the pommel form also is key to those seen on the schiavona. The schiavona was of course the distinct sword used by the Dalmatian guards who acted as guards as the Doge's palace in Venice. The interesting marks with star and crescent may be Italian markings. In Boccia & Coelho (op.cit) p.358 there are blade markings which include the crescent moon, although they appear with either one or two crosses of the cross and orb form. I have not yet found one with the star, but would not be surprised for this to be included in such markings. The markings described are both noted as from Venice c.1500-1510. I know I have seen a similar sword to this, especially by the distinctly shaped escutcheon on the crossguard, but as yet have not found it. Now....please tell us where you have found this sword!!! All the best, Jim

9th December 2006, 02:30 PM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thanks Jim, I also thought of a pre-schiavona type of venetian sword when saw the immages. Especially the pommel talks in that favour, beeing a predecessor of the typical Schiavona cat head pommel. The sword is not in my possesion (yet). I'll do my best to get that medieval piece in my collection. Then I'll attach more photos. It was found underground with a metal detector in the italian region of Northern Friuli (not so far away from Venice).

9th December 2006, 05:29 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thats excellent Valjhun!! Outstanding provenance, exactly what is needed in studying history and development of weapons. Thank you very much for sharing this, and please keep us posted OK. All the best, Jim

10th December 2006, 05:22 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Crescent and star at the forte? What's that about, I wonder?

10th December 2006, 09:11 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Andrew, I think thats where the initial heading for this thread came from, with the obvious association of the familiar Ottoman symbols. I think this marking is likely from the Italian maker, at least as noted in Boccia & Coelho (op.cit.) it is shown that the crescent did appear on Italian blades, in this case from Venice. Still looking for one that incorporates the star. The complexities of all these markings probably derive from workmans guilds, but later became associated with talismanic symbolism in varying degree. All the best, Jim

11th December 2006, 09:49 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Sorry I sounded so blunt in my response Andrew, not intended. Its not like you aren't in circuit breaker overload trying to keep up with all the activity here, so quite understandable All the best my friend, Jim

8th July 2012, 05:25 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Now I understand the origins of Nimcha much better :-)

9th July 2012, 03:09 AM	#14
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	VERY GOOD INFORMATION A COMBINATION OF A FEW OF THESE THREADS IN THE ETH. AND EURO. FORUMS RELATED TO SCHIAVONA WOULD MAKE A GOOD REFERENCE. RELATED TO SCHIAVONA