French musket

JamesKelly · 22nd May 2016, 07:00 PM

Are there any French musket guys out there?

I have a flint musket on which I'd appreciate some insight. By the styling I have assumed it to be French. My father, Hugh Kelly. bought it about 1961 from the late Carlisle Smith, a Missouri archaeologist. Smith had brought it back from Europe, along with other antique guns. Mr. Smith had been certain that Dad would buy this one, as the single-bridle lock was engraved with "P.KELLY", and a standing bear. Right on, C. Smith! As there is corrosion over top of this engraving I assume it was done contemporary with the gun's use, if not manufacture. There are no other markings, no proof marks or numbers. I have not looked under the barrel.

By the bayonet lug, long entry thimble, sling swivels and caliber I assume it is a military gun. The a part-octagonal barrel being fastened with pins implies to me that It was made before French military guns were very well standardized. Perhaps before 1730? The barrel is just under 40" (1000mm, or roughly 3 pied 1 pouce), .70 or .71 (18mm) caliber. The breech end is octagonal for 13-1/2" (3430mm), tapering into round. The lock is 6-1/2" (165mm). The iron entry thimble is 6-1/4" (159mm) long, the middle thimble 3" (76mm) long. Trumpet ramrod looks too new to be original. The musket weighs 8lb 7 oz (3.83kg).

I saw nothing similar in Didier Bianchi's French Military Small Arms. I find some resemblance to an earlier musket on p35 of Kevin Gladysz' The French Trade Gun in North America. Neither The Military Arms of Canada, Historical Arms series No. 1, or The Fusil de Tulle in New France 1691 - 1741 are more help. Of course, this may reflect my limited knowledge of French arms in the first place, that I may not quite know what to look for. I have one more French book coming, i think it is somewhere over the Atlantic as I write. That is Jean Boutriot's Armes à feu françaises modèles réglemantaires 1717-1836 - Volume 1. I can only hope the illustrations may compensate somewhat for my ignorance of the language.

Well, this is as far as I think I know.

fernando · 22nd May 2016, 07:58 PM

Hi James,
I wouldn't be surprised if knowledged members tell you this is not a French musket.
I don't know, the P. KELLY name on the lock plate; is that a bear next to it ?
Unless early models were significantly different from later ones, quite a few details don't check.
Here is a rather complete list of French muskets; pity that it is in french and not illustrated ... but is something to start with. You can exclude details like measurements and so, by comparing them to your example. Also browsing the web using the dates of the models you may find their illustrations:

http://www.academie-des-armes-anciennes.com/amff.html

I hope it helps, until someone comes up with more precise info.

corrado26 · 23rd May 2016, 05:11 PM

As you can see from the drawings of the first French infantry gun M 1717 your gun cannot be French. The lock is totally different and the following French version 1728 has iron barrel rings. I do at the moment not know to which country your piece belongs the less so since the name P.KELLY is not to be found in all reference books but I try to find it out
corrado26

fernando · 23rd May 2016, 09:01 PM

Ir would be interesting to see a picture of the lock with the hammer cocked, so that the 'beast' close to the name is fully shown.

JamesKelly · 23rd May 2016, 10:15 PM

OK, I erred. The PKELLY and standing bear do not have corrosion over the engraving. I would say this was a mid-2oth century addition As was the ramrod, using a 0. 235" steel rod. That is almost exactly 6mm (0.236"). In the USA standard small steel rods would be 6.35mm (0.250"). So the new ramrod was made in Europe, and it does appear that PKELLY and his bear are modern additions.
Right now the lock is partially disassembled in my basement. The rear lock bolt hole has an old bolt broken off in it. There is a new hole drilled and tapped for the current (rear) lock bolt. The stock is not drilled for the old lock bolt hole, but only for the more recent. The lock inlet appears to be cut for this particular lock.
As noted, the barrel is fastened to the stock with pins. There are no barrel bands, as one would expect least on the Model 1728.
The lock is round faced and the barrel half-octagon.
This description fits no standard French musket from 1717 on.
It does look vaguely like the 1680's gun shown on page 35, "The French Trade Gun in North America".
No body but me likes French here. Oh, well.
I did find one, and only one, marking, stamped inside the lock plate. Not clear to me what it is, I will have to experiment with lighting and maybe a smear of black paint to get a decent photo. Stay Tuned.

corrado26 · 24th May 2016, 03:09 PM

It would help to separate the barrel from the stock and eventally find some stamps/marks..........
corrado26

JamesKelly · 24th May 2016, 07:11 PM

Not ready to take the barrel out.
The lock recess looks like this was the original lock used. That is, the recess has not been recut.
There is a stamp on the inside of the lockplate. So far this is the only mark I have found on this musket.

I realize it does not match any standard French musket from Model 1717 on. 1717 was when the French more or less standardized their musket patterns.

Part octagon, part round barrels like on this musket were used on earlier guns.

My thought is that it was made some time between 1680 and 1720.

Well, any thoughts on what this lock mark might be?

fernando · 24th May 2016, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesKelly

... My thought is that it was made some time between 1680 and 1720...

So early, James ?

JamesKelly · 25th May 2016, 04:18 AM

Yeah, Fernando, that was stretching it

I think it French as the trigger guard and side plate look like what we borrowed from them after our revolution

It used a socket bayonet, so I imagine it should be post-1705 or so.

I think it is about the time that the French were more or less standardizing their military weapons. I have the impression this was a process not an immediate change. I suppose this musket is probably to no one's standard. It retains the octagon-round barrel, round-face lock & single bridle of earlier guns..

Leaving for Georgia (the US state) tomorrow morning. I'll look through another book or so later on next week. Not sure I will take the chance of removing the barrel. I have found that Old Stuff tends to break.

corrado26 · 25th May 2016, 08:40 AM

I think that the lock was made in the German town of SUHL, at least the marking on the inside is of SUHL origine. The tumbler is covered by a bridle what shows that this lock is far later as you assume, certainly not made about 1680! It would be really very helpful to know the markings of the barrel's underside
corrado26

Fernando K · 25th May 2016, 01:38 PM

Hello

Marcel Baldet in "Les Armes a Feu", brings a panoply, the Musee de la Armee, as a light rifle official and gentle-hommes cadets.

Fernando K

rickystl · 28th May 2016, 05:59 PM

Hmmm....what a mystery. The butt stock design reminds me of someting that escapes me at the moment. Are the mounts all iron or brass or a combination?
Rick.

JamesKelly · 20th June 2016, 02:24 AM

Ahh, Mr Corrado26 so my "French" musket was likely made in Suhl? Might you share the reference you use for identifying this mark?

Regardless, thank you sir, and thank all of you for your comments.

One of the many things I learn on this site is how little I know. Can't say as I enjoy having this pointed out, but . . .

Markings under the barrel would be interesting. However on close examination various splinters, including about some of the pins, have been filled in. I prefer not to risk further splintering by driving out those pins.

Also I think the side plate may have been replaced with some thin 20th century sheet steel.

All of the mountings are iron, no brass at all. The butt stock shape is one with which I am unfamiliar.

I will investigate the Marcel Baudet work.

22nd May 2016, 07:00 PM	#1
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	French musket Are there any French musket guys out there? I have a flint musket on which I'd appreciate some insight. By the styling I have assumed it to be French. My father, Hugh Kelly. bought it about 1961 from the late Carlisle Smith, a Missouri archaeologist. Smith had brought it back from Europe, along with other antique guns. Mr. Smith had been certain that Dad would buy this one, as the single-bridle lock was engraved with "P.KELLY", and a standing bear. Right on, C. Smith! As there is corrosion over top of this engraving I assume it was done contemporary with the gun's use, if not manufacture. There are no other markings, no proof marks or numbers. I have not looked under the barrel. By the bayonet lug, long entry thimble, sling swivels and caliber I assume it is a military gun. The a part-octagonal barrel being fastened with pins implies to me that It was made before French military guns were very well standardized. Perhaps before 1730? The barrel is just under 40" (1000mm, or roughly 3 pied 1 pouce), .70 or .71 (18mm) caliber. The breech end is octagonal for 13-1/2" (3430mm), tapering into round. The lock is 6-1/2" (165mm). The iron entry thimble is 6-1/4" (159mm) long, the middle thimble 3" (76mm) long. Trumpet ramrod looks too new to be original. The musket weighs 8lb 7 oz (3.83kg). I saw nothing similar in Didier Bianchi's French Military Small Arms. I find some resemblance to an earlier musket on p35 of Kevin Gladysz' The French Trade Gun in North America. Neither The Military Arms of Canada, Historical Arms series No. 1, or The Fusil de Tulle in New France 1691 - 1741 are more help. Of course, this may reflect my limited knowledge of French arms in the first place, that I may not quite know what to look for. I have one more French book coming, i think it is somewhere over the Atlantic as I write. That is Jean Boutriot's Armes à feu françaises modèles réglemantaires 1717-1836 - Volume 1. I can only hope the illustrations may compensate somewhat for my ignorance of the language. Well, this is as far as I think I know. Attached Images

23rd May 2016, 05:11 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	As you can see from the drawings of the first French infantry gun M 1717 your gun cannot be French. The lock is totally different and the following French version 1728 has iron barrel rings. I do at the moment not know to which country your piece belongs the less so since the name P.KELLY is not to be found in all reference books but I try to find it out corrado26 Attached Images

24th May 2016, 07:11 PM	#7
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Not ready to take the barrel out. The lock recess looks like this was the original lock used. That is, the recess has not been recut. There is a stamp on the inside of the lockplate. So far this is the only mark I have found on this musket. I realize it does not match any standard French musket from Model 1717 on. 1717 was when the French more or less standardized their musket patterns. Part octagon, part round barrels like on this musket were used on earlier guns. My thought is that it was made some time between 1680 and 1720. Well, any thoughts on what this lock mark might be? Attached Images

22nd May 2016, 07:58 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi James, I wouldn't be surprised if knowledged members tell you this is not a French musket. I don't know, the P. KELLY name on the lock plate; is that a bear next to it ? Unless early models were significantly different from later ones, quite a few details don't check. Here is a rather complete list of French muskets; pity that it is in french and not illustrated ... but is something to start with. You can exclude details like measurements and so, by comparing them to your example. Also browsing the web using the dates of the models you may find their illustrations: http://www.academie-des-armes-anciennes.com/amff.html I hope it helps, until someone comes up with more precise info.

23rd May 2016, 09:01 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ir would be interesting to see a picture of the lock with the hammer cocked, so that the 'beast' close to the name is fully shown.

23rd May 2016, 10:15 PM	#5
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	OK, I erred. The PKELLY and standing bear do not have corrosion over the engraving. I would say this was a mid-2oth century addition As was the ramrod, using a 0. 235" steel rod. That is almost exactly 6mm (0.236"). In the USA standard small steel rods would be 6.35mm (0.250"). So the new ramrod was made in Europe, and it does appear that PKELLY and his bear are modern additions. Right now the lock is partially disassembled in my basement. The rear lock bolt hole has an old bolt broken off in it. There is a new hole drilled and tapped for the current (rear) lock bolt. The stock is not drilled for the old lock bolt hole, but only for the more recent. The lock inlet appears to be cut for this particular lock. As noted, the barrel is fastened to the stock with pins. There are no barrel bands, as one would expect least on the Model 1728. The lock is round faced and the barrel half-octagon. This description fits no standard French musket from 1717 on. It does look vaguely like the 1680's gun shown on page 35, "The French Trade Gun in North America". No body but me likes French here. Oh, well. I did find one, and only one, marking, stamped inside the lock plate. Not clear to me what it is, I will have to experiment with lighting and maybe a smear of black paint to get a decent photo. Stay Tuned.

24th May 2016, 03:09 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	It would help to separate the barrel from the stock and eventally find some stamps/marks.......... corrado26

25th May 2016, 04:18 AM	#9
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Yeah, Fernando, that was stretching it I think it French as the trigger guard and side plate look like what we borrowed from them after our revolution It used a socket bayonet, so I imagine it should be post-1705 or so. I think it is about the time that the French were more or less standardizing their military weapons. I have the impression this was a process not an immediate change. I suppose this musket is probably to no one's standard. It retains the octagon-round barrel, round-face lock & single bridle of earlier guns.. Leaving for Georgia (the US state) tomorrow morning. I'll look through another book or so later on next week. Not sure I will take the chance of removing the barrel. I have found that Old Stuff tends to break.

25th May 2016, 08:40 AM	#10
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	I think that the lock was made in the German town of SUHL, at least the marking on the inside is of SUHL origine. The tumbler is covered by a bridle what shows that this lock is far later as you assume, certainly not made about 1680! It would be really very helpful to know the markings of the barrel's underside corrado26

25th May 2016, 01:38 PM	#11
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello Marcel Baldet in "Les Armes a Feu", brings a panoply, the Musee de la Armee, as a light rifle official and gentle-hommes cadets. Fernando K

28th May 2016, 05:59 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hmmm....what a mystery. The butt stock design reminds me of someting that escapes me at the moment. Are the mounts all iron or brass or a combination? Rick.

20th June 2016, 02:24 AM	#13
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Ahh, Mr Corrado26 so my "French" musket was likely made in Suhl? Might you share the reference you use for identifying this mark? Regardless, thank you sir, and thank all of you for your comments. One of the many things I learn on this site is how little I know. Can't say as I enjoy having this pointed out, but . . . Markings under the barrel would be interesting. However on close examination various splinters, including about some of the pins, have been filled in. I prefer not to risk further splintering by driving out those pins. Also I think the side plate may have been replaced with some thin 20th century sheet steel. All of the mountings are iron, no brass at all. The butt stock shape is one with which I am unfamiliar. I will investigate the Marcel Baudet work.