Silver Baskethilt Sword for comment

Norman McCormick · 31st January 2024, 06:08 PM

Hi,
This would be a good place to start.
Regard,
Norman.

https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/...tters%20Z.html

https://silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Make...urgh-R.html#RG

Radboud · 31st January 2024, 08:38 PM

What an interesting sword and great to see another silver basket hilt. As you say I also suspect the basket is later than the blade. Fortunately it is hallmarked which should help give us a more precise date.

I'd recommend that you post photos of the basket, sword and hallmarks on this forum, www.925-1000.com - Scottish Hallmarks they are the experts in my experience.

10thRoyal · 2nd February 2024, 06:39 PM

I'm not sure about the blade but I have a match for the maker of the basket at least. This one was a good brain teaser to find. I found a mention in "The Silver Spoon Club" magazine from 2006 that lists a spoon made by a Robert Gordon of Madras circa 1812 with a RG and thistle mark with a Z stamp. They even had a a picture of this stamp.

Your sword is getting more interesting by the minute!

Jim McDougall · 2nd February 2024, 07:17 PM

Absolutely Brilliant 10th!
As always, the answers to our questions as we try to identify swords are so often not in any 'sword' book!
Here we have our answer in a 'silver spoon book' yay!

So this hilt maker, and apparently his family were situated in Madras. The Scottish presence in India has been well known during the British Raj, and Madras (then Chennai) was a key East India Co. center, with a considerable Scottish community.

By analogy I think of a Pathan commander of the famed "Khyber Rifles" c. 1880s in a photograph holding a Scottish basket hilt. Also, there was a very interesting paper online titled "The Tiger and the Thistle" about the notable Scottish presence in the East India Company in the time of Tipu Sultan in Mysore (near Madras). The tiger was the symbol of Tipu Sultan.

So perhaps a remarkably made Scottish basket hilt in silver produced for an officer or someone of notable standing in Madras in the periods established by the hallmark. It is hard to say what this apparently heirloom blade might be from, but obviously the inset ricasso as seen in rapier blades suggests it is from an entirely different type of sword .
Now to find the maker or user of that punzone on the blade.

SwordLover79 · 5th February 2024, 04:02 PM

I truly appreciate the insights - what a great forum! Does anybody recognize the crowned star mark on the blade by any change?

10thRoyal · 6th February 2024, 04:22 PM

Jim those are some mighty kind words. And I think you are right on the money that the recessed ricasso points to something more along the lines of a 18th or 17th century rapier/calvary sword/"insert favorite variation of the word here". Something German maybe? As for the marking I haven't turned anything up but maybe someone has one of the more extensive catalogues on hand.

Are there any other potential markings on the ricasso besides the crowned star? Even if they are faint.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2024, 05:54 PM

This is an INCREDIBLE sword!!!
I have been watching the series "Outlander" on Netflix, which though a 'romance' oriented story, it portrays the Scottish Highlands in the 18th century prior to, during and after Culloden.

Obviously my family heritage (McDougall et al) is from there (we had men at Culloden, but other clan names). The Jacobites had ties to Italy of course, and Prince Charles Stuart himself was born and raised there. While France was of course the key staging area for the 1745 Rebellion, the Catholic Faith, with the Vatican was naturally the revered center religiously for the Stuarts.

Here the blade form is clearly an early blade with phrases in Latin.
I found the marking in "Small Arms Makers", Robert Gardner, 1963, p.360;

It is to an unidentified armorer in Venice, from one found on a 'salade' helmet c. 1465(pictured). It is important to remember that armorers attended to overall outfitting with armor as well as weapons.

The attached image of the mark cites as a source 'Keasby' which is unknown to me (not in bibliography).
The recessed ricasso does seem unusual on this blade, which may be of course an Italian arming sword, but perhaps with a developed guard system of this period.

This may be a heirloom blade acquired by a Scot in the service of the Stuarts in Italy, and held by an ancestor in distinguished lineage, who likely had the sword itself (or perhaps just the blade?). Perhaps he was serving in India and had the blade mounted in this traditional basket hilt in silver.

Another possibility would be that the sword blade was already in India, as European trade was prevalent of course, and Italian swords, blades etc. (typically Venetian, key in Italian trade) were often notably acquired.

With the inscribed phrases, the primary of course PRO CHRISTO ET PATRIA (for Christ and country);
but FIDE SED CUI VID (loosely, 'have confidence but be careful in whom you trust' ) was a favored phrase notably on the armorial bearings of the NICOLL family).
The NEC TEMERE NE TIMIDE (= neither rashly nor timidly)

Clearly a blade which would have been treasured by a Jacobite owner, as well as by his descendant.

An amazing sword with profound historical potential!

2nd February 2024, 06:39 PM	#3
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 60	I'm not sure about the blade but I have a match for the maker of the basket at least. This one was a good brain teaser to find. I found a mention in "The Silver Spoon Club" magazine from 2006 that lists a spoon made by a Robert Gordon of Madras circa 1812 with a RG and thistle mark with a Z stamp. They even had a a picture of this stamp. Your sword is getting more interesting by the minute! Attached Images

6th February 2024, 05:54 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	This is an INCREDIBLE sword!!! I have been watching the series "Outlander" on Netflix, which though a 'romance' oriented story, it portrays the Scottish Highlands in the 18th century prior to, during and after Culloden. Obviously my family heritage (McDougall et al) is from there (we had men at Culloden, but other clan names). The Jacobites had ties to Italy of course, and Prince Charles Stuart himself was born and raised there. While France was of course the key staging area for the 1745 Rebellion, the Catholic Faith, with the Vatican was naturally the revered center religiously for the Stuarts. Here the blade form is clearly an early blade with phrases in Latin. I found the marking in "Small Arms Makers", Robert Gardner, 1963, p.360; It is to an unidentified armorer in Venice, from one found on a 'salade' helmet c. 1465(pictured). It is important to remember that armorers attended to overall outfitting with armor as well as weapons. The attached image of the mark cites as a source 'Keasby' which is unknown to me (not in bibliography). The recessed ricasso does seem unusual on this blade, which may be of course an Italian arming sword, but perhaps with a developed guard system of this period. This may be a heirloom blade acquired by a Scot in the service of the Stuarts in Italy, and held by an ancestor in distinguished lineage, who likely had the sword itself (or perhaps just the blade?). Perhaps he was serving in India and had the blade mounted in this traditional basket hilt in silver. Another possibility would be that the sword blade was already in India, as European trade was prevalent of course, and Italian swords, blades etc. (typically Venetian, key in Italian trade) were often notably acquired. With the inscribed phrases, the primary of course PRO CHRISTO ET PATRIA (for Christ and country); but FIDE SED CUI VID (loosely, 'have confidence but be careful in whom you trust' ) was a favored phrase notably on the armorial bearings of the NICOLL family). The NEC TEMERE NE TIMIDE (= neither rashly nor timidly) Clearly a blade which would have been treasured by a Jacobite owner, as well as by his descendant. An amazing sword with profound historical potential! Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th February 2024 at 06:14 PM.

31st January 2024, 06:08 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hi, This would be a good place to start. Regard, Norman. https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/...tters%20Z.html https://silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Make...urgh-R.html#RG

31st January 2024, 08:38 PM	#2
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 226	What an interesting sword and great to see another silver basket hilt. As you say I also suspect the basket is later than the blade. Fortunately it is hallmarked which should help give us a more precise date. I'd recommend that you post photos of the basket, sword and hallmarks on this forum, www.925-1000.com - Scottish Hallmarks they are the experts in my experience.

2nd February 2024, 07:17 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Absolutely Brilliant 10th! As always, the answers to our questions as we try to identify swords are so often not in any 'sword' book! Here we have our answer in a 'silver spoon book' yay! So this hilt maker, and apparently his family were situated in Madras. The Scottish presence in India has been well known during the British Raj, and Madras (then Chennai) was a key East India Co. center, with a considerable Scottish community. By analogy I think of a Pathan commander of the famed "Khyber Rifles" c. 1880s in a photograph holding a Scottish basket hilt. Also, there was a very interesting paper online titled "The Tiger and the Thistle" about the notable Scottish presence in the East India Company in the time of Tipu Sultan in Mysore (near Madras). The tiger was the symbol of Tipu Sultan. So perhaps a remarkably made Scottish basket hilt in silver produced for an officer or someone of notable standing in Madras in the periods established by the hallmark. It is hard to say what this apparently heirloom blade might be from, but obviously the inset ricasso as seen in rapier blades suggests it is from an entirely different type of sword . Now to find the maker or user of that punzone on the blade.

5th February 2024, 04:02 PM	#5
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	I truly appreciate the insights - what a great forum! Does anybody recognize the crowned star mark on the blade by any change?

6th February 2024, 04:22 PM	#6
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 60	Jim those are some mighty kind words. And I think you are right on the money that the recessed ricasso points to something more along the lines of a 18th or 17th century rapier/calvary sword/"insert favorite variation of the word here". Something German maybe? As for the marking I haven't turned anything up but maybe someone has one of the more extensive catalogues on hand. Are there any other potential markings on the ricasso besides the crowned star? Even if they are faint.