ITALIAN INFANTRY SWORD(VENETIAN?)circa1600

Skarts_ss · 21st April 2014, 04:12 PM

Hi
recently i bought this sword. I think that it is a Venetian infantry sword. The grip and the pommel seems to be restored. Does anybody recognize the makers mark??? Ive seen it in other swords of that period.
any comments welcome.
Thanks

Jim McDougall · 22nd April 2014, 08:46 PM

This is as noted, an arming sword of early 17th century and Italian, three of them shown in Bocchia & Coelho ("Armi Bianche Italiene", Milan, 1975) #585;586;587 and all captioned 'spade de fanti' Veneto, 1620-30.
References show corresponding examples Blair (1962) #179; and Ffoulkes (1917) IX49.

The grip and pommel do appear replacement as the originals had faceted egg shape pommel, worked ferrule and the grip 'turks heads' are absent on this one.
The crosshatching on the guard at center is also notably present on the illustrated examples.

You say you've seen this 'mark' (name?) on other swords of this period? What is the name, I cant make it out. The blocked capital letters seem more Solingen to me, and one of these examples has 'IOHANN' partial in the fuller. This blade seems one of the Solingen schiavona type.

fernando · 22nd April 2014, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... You say you've seen this 'mark' (name?) on other swords of this period? What is the name, I cant make it out...

Are the visible letters ... SACCHI ? An Italian type of name

.

Iain · 22nd April 2014, 09:35 PM

These hilts are sometimes known as "crab claw" hilts. I would agree the grip is certainly a later replacement. The pommel also doesn't "fit" to my eyes for the reasons Jim mentioned. They are typically not round like this one, but elongated egg-like shapes. Often multifaceted instead of smooth and typically with an extension at the end to house a tang nub.

In any case an interesting and nice sword. I've also seen SACCHI on various Italian swords from the period, a maker's name perhaps? In any case I don't believe this is a Solingen product. The north Italian blade manufacture industry was more than alive and well in the 17th century.

Jim McDougall · 23rd April 2014, 06:19 AM

Thanks Nando and Iain, so its SACCHI . That is interesting, and good to know this is likely Italian rather than Solingen. It seems these makers were indeed quite active in the 17th century as you well note Iain. There was a great deal of cross traffic between there, Germany and Spain in these times, and as I noted the extremely blocked letters just seemed German.
Ive always thought the scallop shell guards were interesting, and this one apparently reasonably restored, is a great example!

fernando · 23rd April 2014, 01:47 PM

... And if you keep on digging, you end up finding something. Master Sacchi is not such an unknown smith ... maybe good enough to have his name forged by less famous rivals, a custom often followed in the period.

http://www.weapons-universe.com/Swor...aissance.shtml

QUOTING ...Sword blades were manufactured in Toledo and Valencia (Spain), Solingen and Passau (Germany), and Milan and Brescia (Italy). They were sold as unhilted blades and then hilted locally at their eventual destinations throughout Europe. Some blades are marked by their maker, although many are plain. Notable bladesmiths’ names include Piccinino, Caino, Sacchi and Ferrara from Italy, .Johannes, Wundes and Tesche (Germany) and Hernandez (Spain).. Respected names were often stamped on blades by lesser-known rivals to enhance the value of an inferior sword.

.

Skarts_ss · 23rd April 2014, 02:28 PM

Wow!!!!thank you all guys for that info....i forgot to post the other side of the blade, that bears the name ROMANNA. The blade is of very good quality sharp, light and flexible...

Iain · 23rd April 2014, 02:54 PM

Great image Fernando.

Thanks for sharing, looking forward to seeing what else surfaces.

Jim McDougall · 23rd April 2014, 10:41 PM

Outstanding Nando!!! I did not 'excavate' my copy of Gyngell, which is in one of the deeper strata here in the bookmobile , under the bed

Thank you for locating that and sharing the detail. Learn something new every day around here, and that's what its about!

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 24th April 2014, 12:43 PM

But you know, one thing is the smith's name, another thing is the genuineness of the mark.
You would have to check other swords made by Sacchi, to conclude whether the mark in this one belongs to him or if we are facing one of countless signature copies.
This because the lettering doesn't look like a keen job to me in the context and i wonder about the double L ROMANNA term; one of these popular allusions, not exclusive of this smith ?
But don't pay much attention to my remarks, Skarts

. I am far from having the real knowledge. All i wish is that your blade was forged by the aledged master

Skarts_ss · 24th April 2014, 01:10 PM

Thank you Fernando!!! The name is Scacchi and i dont know if you noticed the stamp. It is a cross with two tails. I have seen it in other Italian blades. If it is an original master blade that would be lovely. However it is a nice blade and could be slight inferior than an original signed blade.

Jim McDougall · 24th April 2014, 09:46 PM

I think it is important to remember that misspellings and variations in marks etc. can have many explanations. Many 'masters' had ever expanding workshops in order to meet the demand for their products as their prowess and renown became widely known . This kind of thing accounts for many of the wildly varied and sometimes almost indiscernible 'running wolf' marks. These were often added by various workers and apprentices in shops. It is much the same with spellings, many workers were of course not literate and made these kinds of errors in transcribing markings of names or inscriptions.

It is often the case that misspelling and improper usage often point to Solingen interpretations, which is what led me to that assumption originally .
I think the main thing is that the conception of having a 'signed' blade is pretty hard to prove considering the volume of swords produced in many workshops; the use of spurious marks and signatures by other makers using them as quality signatures etc
Case in point 'ANDREA FERARA', Allegedly this 16th century Belluno maker actually existed, but there are many legends and misperceptions, compounded by the fact that he could not himself have produced blades in several countries over 250 years!

23rd April 2014, 01:47 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	... And if you keep on digging, you end up finding something. Master Sacchi is not such an unknown smith ... maybe good enough to have his name forged by less famous rivals, a custom often followed in the period. http://www.weapons-universe.com/Swor...aissance.shtml QUOTING ...Sword blades were manufactured in Toledo and Valencia (Spain), Solingen and Passau (Germany), and Milan and Brescia (Italy). They were sold as unhilted blades and then hilted locally at their eventual destinations throughout Europe. Some blades are marked by their maker, although many are plain. Notable bladesmiths’ names include Piccinino, Caino, Sacchi and Ferrara from Italy, .Johannes, Wundes and Tesche (Germany) and Hernandez (Spain).. Respected names were often stamped on blades by lesser-known rivals to enhance the value of an inferior sword. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 23rd April 2014 at 01:58 PM.

23rd April 2014, 02:28 PM	#7
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	Wow!!!!thank you all guys for that info....i forgot to post the other side of the blade, that bears the name ROMANNA. The blade is of very good quality sharp, light and flexible... Attached Images

21st April 2014, 04:12 PM	#1
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	ITALIAN INFANTRY SWORD(VENETIAN?)circa1600 Hi recently i bought this sword. I think that it is a Venetian infantry sword. The grip and the pommel seems to be restored. Does anybody recognize the makers mark??? Ive seen it in other swords of that period. any comments welcome. Thanks Attached Images

22nd April 2014, 08:46 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	This is as noted, an arming sword of early 17th century and Italian, three of them shown in Bocchia & Coelho ("Armi Bianche Italiene", Milan, 1975) #585;586;587 and all captioned 'spade de fanti' Veneto, 1620-30. References show corresponding examples Blair (1962) #179; and Ffoulkes (1917) IX49. The grip and pommel do appear replacement as the originals had faceted egg shape pommel, worked ferrule and the grip 'turks heads' are absent on this one. The crosshatching on the guard at center is also notably present on the illustrated examples. You say you've seen this 'mark' (name?) on other swords of this period? What is the name, I cant make it out. The blocked capital letters seem more Solingen to me, and one of these examples has 'IOHANN' partial in the fuller. This blade seems one of the Solingen schiavona type.

22nd April 2014, 09:35 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	These hilts are sometimes known as "crab claw" hilts. I would agree the grip is certainly a later replacement. The pommel also doesn't "fit" to my eyes for the reasons Jim mentioned. They are typically not round like this one, but elongated egg-like shapes. Often multifaceted instead of smooth and typically with an extension at the end to house a tang nub. In any case an interesting and nice sword. I've also seen SACCHI on various Italian swords from the period, a maker's name perhaps? In any case I don't believe this is a Solingen product. The north Italian blade manufacture industry was more than alive and well in the 17th century.

23rd April 2014, 06:19 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Thanks Nando and Iain, so its SACCHI . That is interesting, and good to know this is likely Italian rather than Solingen. It seems these makers were indeed quite active in the 17th century as you well note Iain. There was a great deal of cross traffic between there, Germany and Spain in these times, and as I noted the extremely blocked letters just seemed German. Ive always thought the scallop shell guards were interesting, and this one apparently reasonably restored, is a great example!

23rd April 2014, 02:54 PM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Great image Fernando. Thanks for sharing, looking forward to seeing what else surfaces.

23rd April 2014, 10:41 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Outstanding Nando!!! I did not 'excavate' my copy of Gyngell, which is in one of the deeper strata here in the bookmobile , under the bed Thank you for locating that and sharing the detail. Learn something new every day around here, and that's what its about! All the best, Jim

24th April 2014, 12:43 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	But you know, one thing is the smith's name, another thing is the genuineness of the mark. You would have to check other swords made by Sacchi, to conclude whether the mark in this one belongs to him or if we are facing one of countless signature copies. This because the lettering doesn't look like a keen job to me in the context and i wonder about the double L ROMANNA term; one of these popular allusions, not exclusive of this smith ? But don't pay much attention to my remarks, Skarts . I am far from having the real knowledge. All i wish is that your blade was forged by the aledged master

24th April 2014, 01:10 PM	#11
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	Thank you Fernando!!! The name is Scacchi and i dont know if you noticed the stamp. It is a cross with two tails. I have seen it in other Italian blades. If it is an original master blade that would be lovely. However it is a nice blade and could be slight inferior than an original signed blade.

24th April 2014, 09:46 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	I think it is important to remember that misspellings and variations in marks etc. can have many explanations. Many 'masters' had ever expanding workshops in order to meet the demand for their products as their prowess and renown became widely known . This kind of thing accounts for many of the wildly varied and sometimes almost indiscernible 'running wolf' marks. These were often added by various workers and apprentices in shops. It is much the same with spellings, many workers were of course not literate and made these kinds of errors in transcribing markings of names or inscriptions. It is often the case that misspelling and improper usage often point to Solingen interpretations, which is what led me to that assumption originally . I think the main thing is that the conception of having a 'signed' blade is pretty hard to prove considering the volume of swords produced in many workshops; the use of spurious marks and signatures by other makers using them as quality signatures etc Case in point 'ANDREA FERARA', Allegedly this 16th century Belluno maker actually existed, but there are many legends and misperceptions, compounded by the fact that he could not himself have produced blades in several countries over 250 years!