HELP!!! IS THIS TULWAR GOOD OR FAKE???

Flavio · 1st September 2006, 10:58 AM

Dear all, i need your help! I have bought this tulwar, the first and i know nothing of indian arms (i have bought Lord Egerton's book, but at this moment i'm reading Cato's book

). Seems to me a strange thing: the scabbard seems a very worn item, but the blade, even if hand forged and with some pitting of rust, give me a strange feeling

The brass handle is nice, but when you look at this in the side view, you see the line of conjunction (but, if i'm not wrong, the indian steel hilt are made from one piece

, but maybe i'm wrong!?!). So please help me to understand what i have here. Thank you for the help

Rick · 1st September 2006, 04:36 PM

Hi Flavio, it looks like someone cleaned the living daylights out of this sword .
It's not unusual to see a seam on some of these hilts; I couldn't speak to its age after a cleaning like that .

ariel · 1st September 2006, 04:37 PM

Tough to be decisive when one can rely only on the pics, but...
The scabbard looks quite good, even better than most of the usual "tulwar" scabbards.The material (leather) is orders of magnitude better than the usual canvas or cheerful flowered fabric.
The sword itself looks simple: the pommel is plain. However, the general contour is quite pleasing and clean. The blade doesn't look " 18th century" but it is not of a "touristy" quality either. I have seen touristy tulwars with brass handles: they had very thin and weak blades. This one looks quite functional.
I would guess it is not a fake or a touristy item, but a functional tulwar of the fist half of the 20th century.
Disagreements, anyone?

Flavio · 1st September 2006, 04:48 PM

Thank you Rick and Ariel. I'm happy if this isn't a fake!! Indeed the blade is quite heavy and the spine is also quite thick (45 mm). Moreover there is a false edge that in the 5 -6 cm near the point is sharp. What do you think if i clean the blade from the rust and than etch a little the blade, in order to see if there is at least a hardened edge?

katana · 1st September 2006, 05:12 PM

What a shame that any patina that was on the blade has been removed. I like the hilt, could it be alittle older than the blade...re-hilted?.
Seeing as the blade has probably been thoroughly cleaned

I suspect an etch would be on my 'to do list'

The comments on the scabbard are well founded.....looks alot more 'business-like' than my examples, ...very nice

B.I · 1st September 2006, 06:55 PM

tulwars hilts come in various different constructions, including a seam along the side, so i dont have a problem with it at all.
i would go along with ariels assessment in dating. the hilt is definately 'late' but this could mean end of 19th and well into the 20thC.
i had an identical blade on a sword, and i dont feel the markings a result of over-cleaning. i think the blade also is late, and with the shape, an attempt to replicate an earlier style. mine too had a look of being 'cut' out (no fullers) which definately bodes for a late date, possibly even later than the first half of the 20thC. mine too had the same scuffs along the blade.
the scabbard, as noted, has some age, and the way the bottom mount sits, i dont believe they went together.
but, i also dont believe this sword to be modern, so early to mid 20thC is a good guess.
an etch is a good idea, but dont get your hopes up. i didnt think mine could possibly be wootz from the overall look, and had it confirmed on a test.

Flavio · 1st September 2006, 07:01 PM

Thank you very much Brian. Wootz

at least i hope in an hardened edge. If i find it maybe i can considered this tulwar quite decent

Ah, the scabbard mounts fit in good way, but there is a sort of cut see pics.
Regards

FourBlades · 2nd September 2006, 01:11 AM

I am a new collector, can you describe the solution and procedure for etching a sword? I think I read that Keris are cleaned and etched using an arsenic/citric acid solution? I also realize that doing anything other than conservation to a good sword is usually not advised. If this has been covered before, maybe someone can point me to it.

Thanks,

John

Lew · 2nd September 2006, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FourBlades

I am a new collector, can you describe the solution and procedure for etching a sword? I think I read that Keris are cleaned and etched using an arsenic/citric acid solution? I also realize that doing anything other than conservation to a good sword is usually not advised. If this has been covered before, maybe someone can point me to it.

Thanks,

John

Hi John

Your question does not fit into this thread? May I suggest you do a search on our forum and you will find threads on etching swords. Ferric chloride solution 3 parts water 1 Ferric chloride will do fine or you can use vinegar.

Lew

Flavio · 2nd September 2006, 01:40 PM

Ok, it's time to show you what i have found etching the blade. What do you see? i'm not sure, but first the semicircular sign it's very strange

on the rest of the blade seems to show a lamination or not?

Lew · 2nd September 2006, 02:43 PM

Flavio

That is a nice sword but I don't think it's laminated in the true sense. I think it may be shear steel or double shear steel which is made by stacking blister steel and reforging it to refine the grain it often resembles a linear damascus pattern. This type of steel was common in the late 1800s and exported from England all over the world. Below is a a pic of a double shear steel blade notice the linear pattern.

Lew

Flavio · 2nd September 2006, 03:02 PM

Yes Lew, it's clearly the same steel. Thank you very much, i think that i can be quite happy with this tulwar. Thanks again

Battara · 2nd September 2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Hi John

Your question does not fit into this thread? May I suggest you do a search on our forum and you will find threads on etching swords. Ferric chloride solution 3 parts water 1 Ferric chloride will do fine or you can use vinegar.

Lew

Good adivice since different cultures used different acids for different color and etching effects.

Flavio · 2nd September 2006, 10:17 PM

Hi all! I have contacted the seller to ask him if he knows something more about this sword. He told me that this was brought back from India during the 2nd World War from his grandfather. I don't know if this story is true, but in any case it fits quit good with all is emerged from the thread. Thanks to all for the help

1st September 2006, 10:58 AM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	HELP!!! IS THIS TULWAR GOOD OR FAKE??? Dear all, i need your help! I have bought this tulwar, the first and i know nothing of indian arms (i have bought Lord Egerton's book, but at this moment i'm reading Cato's book ). Seems to me a strange thing: the scabbard seems a very worn item, but the blade, even if hand forged and with some pitting of rust, give me a strange feeling The brass handle is nice, but when you look at this in the side view, you see the line of conjunction (but, if i'm not wrong, the indian steel hilt are made from one piece , but maybe i'm wrong!?!). So please help me to understand what i have here. Thank you for the help Attached Images

1st September 2006, 07:01 PM	#7
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you very much Brian. Wootz at least i hope in an hardened edge. If i find it maybe i can considered this tulwar quite decent Ah, the scabbard mounts fit in good way, but there is a sort of cut see pics. Regards Attached Images Last edited by Flavio; 1st September 2006 at 07:16 PM.

2nd September 2006, 01:11 AM	#8
FourBlades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 13	Etching? I am a new collector, can you describe the solution and procedure for etching a sword? I think I read that Keris are cleaned and etched using an arsenic/citric acid solution? I also realize that doing anything other than conservation to a good sword is usually not advised. If this has been covered before, maybe someone can point me to it. Thanks, John

2nd September 2006, 01:40 PM	#10
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Ok, it's time to show you what i have found etching the blade. What do you see? i'm not sure, but first the semicircular sign it's very strange on the rest of the blade seems to show a lamination or not? Attached Images

2nd September 2006, 02:43 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Flavio That is a nice sword but I don't think it's laminated in the true sense. I think it may be shear steel or double shear steel which is made by stacking blister steel and reforging it to refine the grain it often resembles a linear damascus pattern. This type of steel was common in the late 1800s and exported from England all over the world. Below is a a pic of a double shear steel blade notice the linear pattern. Lew Attached Images

1st September 2006, 04:36 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Flavio, it looks like someone cleaned the living daylights out of this sword . It's not unusual to see a seam on some of these hilts; I couldn't speak to its age after a cleaning like that .

1st September 2006, 04:37 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Tough to be decisive when one can rely only on the pics, but... The scabbard looks quite good, even better than most of the usual "tulwar" scabbards.The material (leather) is orders of magnitude better than the usual canvas or cheerful flowered fabric. The sword itself looks simple: the pommel is plain. However, the general contour is quite pleasing and clean. The blade doesn't look " 18th century" but it is not of a "touristy" quality either. I have seen touristy tulwars with brass handles: they had very thin and weak blades. This one looks quite functional. I would guess it is not a fake or a touristy item, but a functional tulwar of the fist half of the 20th century. Disagreements, anyone?

1st September 2006, 04:48 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you Rick and Ariel. I'm happy if this isn't a fake!! Indeed the blade is quite heavy and the spine is also quite thick (45 mm). Moreover there is a false edge that in the 5 -6 cm near the point is sharp. What do you think if i clean the blade from the rust and than etch a little the blade, in order to see if there is at least a hardened edge?

1st September 2006, 05:12 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	What a shame that any patina that was on the blade has been removed. I like the hilt, could it be alittle older than the blade...re-hilted?. Seeing as the blade has probably been thoroughly cleaned I suspect an etch would be on my 'to do list' The comments on the scabbard are well founded.....looks alot more 'business-like' than my examples, ...very nice

1st September 2006, 06:55 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	tulwars hilts come in various different constructions, including a seam along the side, so i dont have a problem with it at all. i would go along with ariels assessment in dating. the hilt is definately 'late' but this could mean end of 19th and well into the 20thC. i had an identical blade on a sword, and i dont feel the markings a result of over-cleaning. i think the blade also is late, and with the shape, an attempt to replicate an earlier style. mine too had a look of being 'cut' out (no fullers) which definately bodes for a late date, possibly even later than the first half of the 20thC. mine too had the same scuffs along the blade. the scabbard, as noted, has some age, and the way the bottom mount sits, i dont believe they went together. but, i also dont believe this sword to be modern, so early to mid 20thC is a good guess. an etch is a good idea, but dont get your hopes up. i didnt think mine could possibly be wootz from the overall look, and had it confirmed on a test.

2nd September 2006, 03:02 PM	#12
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Yes Lew, it's clearly the same steel. Thank you very much, i think that i can be quite happy with this tulwar. Thanks again

2nd September 2006, 10:17 PM	#14
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all! I have contacted the seller to ask him if he knows something more about this sword. He told me that this was brought back from India during the 2nd World War from his grandfather. I don't know if this story is true, but in any case it fits quit good with all is emerged from the thread. Thanks to all for the help