Dha ... Shan ? Northern Thailand ?

katana · 20th July 2008, 10:25 PM

Acquired another Dha

The spine is chamfered and is approx. 7mm thick. OAL is 25.5 inches (approx 63 cms) The blade is 16.75 inches (approx. 42 cms). Handle seems to have lost some of its 'fittings' and is wrapped with plaited rattan. The blade is described as being 'extremely sharp'. The blade tip seems unusual to me (but then my knowledge on these is limited).

All comments and information gratefully received, thank you

Regards David

Andrew · 20th July 2008, 10:35 PM

Northern Thai or Laos would be correct, David. The longish handle and vestigial guard lead me to think this.

That tip is unusually shaped, and a bit crudely executed. The handle is likely original, as I would expect to see a sword of this appearance to have a rattan-wrapped handle.

RhysMichael · 20th July 2008, 10:52 PM

I'd like to see a better picture of the tip. I get the impression it may have initially had a different shape, maybe rounded. the spine makes me think of a better made blade than the rough look of the tip in the picture would suggest

katana · 20th July 2008, 11:16 PM

Thank you Andrew and RhysMichael for the rapid replies

These are the sellers pictures and I am awaiting delivery so cannot provide better pictures at this moment. The seller was suggesting late 19thC ...I think that alittle 'optimistic'

Is it more likely early 20th.
The marks on the blade near the hilt ... remind me of 'file' made blades, is that possible ??

Regards David

RhysMichael · 21st July 2008, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

The marks on the blade near the hilt ... remind me of 'file' made blades, is that possible ??

Regards David

I saw the marks you are talking about but with the shape of the spine and length of the sword I would not think so. I always thought files were used for short blades made by stock removal not longer forged blades but I could be wrong.

katana · 22nd July 2008, 04:17 PM

Arrived today ... and the blade seems to have some quality

The 'triangulated' tip has been there for a very long time ....I would not be surprised if it was forged this way. The blade looks to be laminated ...but could be an effect of the patina. There also seems to be some very faint decorative etching that has rubbed badly. Nicely balanced, the blade has been waxed, there are areas of 'micro pitting' / staining and the overall patination suggests to me that, indeed this could be 19thC. There are a few chips to the blade...but these appear to be old (magnifying glass) The rattan handle is 22cms long, the pommel capping is missing, but two small nail holes are visible in the end section, so I believe it was not altered. The blade is not central to the handle it is situated slightly to the right (as you look down at it) approx 3-4 mm out. This seems deliberate as the blade is 'square and straight' in relation to the handle.

A 'magnet. test shows that the tang is just over 3.5" long.

Regards David

Andrew · 22nd July 2008, 04:43 PM

Nice! I rather like the tip on that one now that you've shown us some close-ups. An unusual variation, David.

Mark · 22nd July 2008, 04:44 PM

This tip is very interesting, and the first like it I have seen. In most cases where the tip is squared, angled, or rounded, the blade thickness at the spine tapers to the point where the "edge" of the tip is as sharp as the edge of the blade. In this case the spine is still quite meaty where the top angle of the tip begins, and the top edge does not appear sharpened. This leads me to the possibility that it was once upswept, broke off, and was re-cut along the back edge to its present shape.

katana · 22nd July 2008, 05:24 PM

Thanks Mark and Andrew

The 'spine' side of the tip is actually quite sharp ...with no evidence of any recent 'honing' , the patination is the same as the blade. I am not saying that this tip was not the result of a 'break' but, I think the design would allow cutting strikes on the 'back stroke' ...surely a surprise for an opponent as the 'normal' tip profiles would not allow this ?

Re-checking the spine I have discovered that the last 3" before the tip is also quite sharp, as sharp as the edge is presently (Although sharp the blade it is not 'razor' sharp , but as I said before there is no evidence of any recent sharpening and has been 'untouched' for a long time.) This attribute also suggests it could 'slash' on the back stroke.

The handle length is quite long in comparison to the blade length ...is this normal....Thank you

Kind Regards David

Andrew · 22nd July 2008, 05:32 PM

It's not really a question of "normal", David. Swords from this region quite often have long handles. A 2:1 blade:handle ratio is common, and I've seen some with 1:1 ratios.

Some even have handles longer than the blade, but these are really a subset of the form, primarily seen in Laos and the central highlands of Vietnam.

katana · 22nd July 2008, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

It's not really a question of "normal", David. Swords from this region quite often have long handles. A 2:1 blade:handle ratio is common, and I've seen some with 1:1 ratios.

Some even have handles longer than the blade, but these are really a subset of the form, primarily seen in Laos and the central highlands of Vietnam.

Thanks Andrew,
'normal', on reflection, was not a good choice of word. I am really getting to like Dha's (this is my second one) but, my knowledge on these is 'limited' so please 'bear' with me

This Dha is relatively 'light', but the handle suggested the possibility of two handed use, are these swords often used two handed or does the long handle allows placement of the grip to vary, enough to change the 'balance' characteristics and 'handling' of the Dha ...or a combination of the two?

Thanks David

Andrew · 22nd July 2008, 06:24 PM

No worries, David. Welcome to the "Dafia".

Two-handed use is certainly an option and I'm sure it was utilized from time to time. However, the longer handled forms are typically gripped closer to the guard (blade/handle junction when a guard isn't present) in one hand. As you note, this causes the center of balance to shift back towards the guard creating a light, quick "feeling" sword. The long handle thereby acts as a counterweight to the blade, much as large, heavy pommels on western medieval swords did.

For some more information on the handling characteristics of dha, check out the HOS article here: http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...ea.article.htm

Best,
Andrew

katana · 22nd July 2008, 10:32 PM

Interesting Link....thanks Andrew

Regards Dha-vid

PUFF · 23rd July 2008, 03:25 PM

- It is possible to make a functional sword out of an old file. Most if not all blades from this area were edge quenched.

- The blade itself has been heavily customized by one of its owner.

- Blade doesn't have a define waist area. In combination with triangular tip, they remind me Karen 's personal sword.

- I do agree that the hilt 's Lanna style.

- Blade / hilt ratio is regular for a sword of this age (19C-20C). As Andrew described, the grip area 's close to blade/hilt juction. The left of the hilt end around one's elbow. The grip shouldn't be an all-finger hammer grip. But it feel like gripping with thumb and index fingers. All other fingers are auxiliary.

PUFF · 23rd July 2008, 03:47 PM

IMO: The longer hilt 's not for hanling with both hand. It 's substitution of western bulb pommel, used for sword balancing.

Northern (Lanna) style, practicing.
http://hk.youtube.com/kinglanna

Central Thailand style, sparing.
http://littlenet.seedang.com/stories/3171

katana · 23rd July 2008, 05:43 PM

Hi Puff,
thank you for the information

and the links to the videos

Regards David

20th July 2008, 10:25 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Dha ... Shan ? Northern Thailand ? Acquired another Dha The spine is chamfered and is approx. 7mm thick. OAL is 25.5 inches (approx 63 cms) The blade is 16.75 inches (approx. 42 cms). Handle seems to have lost some of its 'fittings' and is wrapped with plaited rattan. The blade is described as being 'extremely sharp'. The blade tip seems unusual to me (but then my knowledge on these is limited). All comments and information gratefully received, thank you Regards David Attached Images

22nd July 2008, 04:17 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Arrived today ... and the blade seems to have some quality The 'triangulated' tip has been there for a very long time ....I would not be surprised if it was forged this way. The blade looks to be laminated ...but could be an effect of the patina. There also seems to be some very faint decorative etching that has rubbed badly. Nicely balanced, the blade has been waxed, there are areas of 'micro pitting' / staining and the overall patination suggests to me that, indeed this could be 19thC. There are a few chips to the blade...but these appear to be old (magnifying glass) The rattan handle is 22cms long, the pommel capping is missing, but two small nail holes are visible in the end section, so I believe it was not altered. The blade is not central to the handle it is situated slightly to the right (as you look down at it) approx 3-4 mm out. This seems deliberate as the blade is 'square and straight' in relation to the handle. A 'magnet. test shows that the tang is just over 3.5" long. Regards David Attached Images

20th July 2008, 10:35 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Northern Thai or Laos would be correct, David. The longish handle and vestigial guard lead me to think this. That tip is unusually shaped, and a bit crudely executed. The handle is likely original, as I would expect to see a sword of this appearance to have a rattan-wrapped handle.

20th July 2008, 10:52 PM	#3
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I'd like to see a better picture of the tip. I get the impression it may have initially had a different shape, maybe rounded. the spine makes me think of a better made blade than the rough look of the tip in the picture would suggest

20th July 2008, 11:16 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you Andrew and RhysMichael for the rapid replies These are the sellers pictures and I am awaiting delivery so cannot provide better pictures at this moment. The seller was suggesting late 19thC ...I think that alittle 'optimistic' Is it more likely early 20th. The marks on the blade near the hilt ... remind me of 'file' made blades, is that possible ?? Regards David

22nd July 2008, 04:43 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Nice! I rather like the tip on that one now that you've shown us some close-ups. An unusual variation, David.

22nd July 2008, 04:44 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	This tip is very interesting, and the first like it I have seen. In most cases where the tip is squared, angled, or rounded, the blade thickness at the spine tapers to the point where the "edge" of the tip is as sharp as the edge of the blade. In this case the spine is still quite meaty where the top angle of the tip begins, and the top edge does not appear sharpened. This leads me to the possibility that it was once upswept, broke off, and was re-cut along the back edge to its present shape.

22nd July 2008, 05:24 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Mark and Andrew The 'spine' side of the tip is actually quite sharp ...with no evidence of any recent 'honing' , the patination is the same as the blade. I am not saying that this tip was not the result of a 'break' but, I think the design would allow cutting strikes on the 'back stroke' ...surely a surprise for an opponent as the 'normal' tip profiles would not allow this ? Re-checking the spine I have discovered that the last 3" before the tip is also quite sharp, as sharp as the edge is presently (Although sharp the blade it is not 'razor' sharp , but as I said before there is no evidence of any recent sharpening and has been 'untouched' for a long time.) This attribute also suggests it could 'slash' on the back stroke. The handle length is quite long in comparison to the blade length ...is this normal....Thank you Kind Regards David

22nd July 2008, 05:32 PM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	It's not really a question of "normal", David. Swords from this region quite often have long handles. A 2:1 blade:handle ratio is common, and I've seen some with 1:1 ratios. Some even have handles longer than the blade, but these are really a subset of the form, primarily seen in Laos and the central highlands of Vietnam.

22nd July 2008, 06:24 PM	#12
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	No worries, David. Welcome to the "Dafia". Two-handed use is certainly an option and I'm sure it was utilized from time to time. However, the longer handled forms are typically gripped closer to the guard (blade/handle junction when a guard isn't present) in one hand. As you note, this causes the center of balance to shift back towards the guard creating a light, quick "feeling" sword. The long handle thereby acts as a counterweight to the blade, much as large, heavy pommels on western medieval swords did. For some more information on the handling characteristics of dha, check out the HOS article here: http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...ea.article.htm Best, Andrew

22nd July 2008, 10:32 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Interesting Link....thanks Andrew Regards Dha-vid

23rd July 2008, 03:25 PM	#14
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	- It is possible to make a functional sword out of an old file. Most if not all blades from this area were edge quenched. - The blade itself has been heavily customized by one of its owner. - Blade doesn't have a define waist area. In combination with triangular tip, they remind me Karen 's personal sword. - I do agree that the hilt 's Lanna style. - Blade / hilt ratio is regular for a sword of this age (19C-20C). As Andrew described, the grip area 's close to blade/hilt juction. The left of the hilt end around one's elbow. The grip shouldn't be an all-finger hammer grip. But it feel like gripping with thumb and index fingers. All other fingers are auxiliary.

23rd July 2008, 03:47 PM	#15
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	IMO: The longer hilt 's not for hanling with both hand. It 's substitution of western bulb pommel, used for sword balancing. Northern (Lanna) style, practicing. http://hk.youtube.com/kinglanna Central Thailand style, sparing. http://littlenet.seedang.com/stories/3171

23rd July 2008, 05:43 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Puff, thank you for the information and the links to the videos Regards David