Malay keris with very old Javanese blade?

[Sajen]

I came across this Malay keris with an Javanese blade, which seems to my eyes to be a very old blade with 9 shallow luk. When the seller took pictures for me, the scabbard fell down. I took it anyway, of course for another price, fortunately he sent me with all pieces of the broken scabbard and I was able to reglue it passably.
Was it common to refit old Javanese blades in Malay dresses?
As usual, all comments are very welcome!

[Gustav]

Detllef,

of course it could be a West Java Keris, but I would perhaps tend more to a Chenok blade from Northern Malay regions, because of Pamor and its manipulations.

[Athanase]

Very nice.

Lovely blade and I especialy like the selut.
The blade look-like to Segaluh type but there a but there is a little thing that is different. I've seen a keris Coteng with a similar blade before but I cannot say where the blade comes from.

[David]

I'm with Gustav. I don't think this is a Javanese blade.

[Sajen]

Hello Gustav, Séverin and David, thank you for your comments!
There seems to be an agreement that it's indeed a Chenok blade, I was unsure and thought like Gustav and Séverin mentioned that it could be a West Javanese blade.

Regards,
Detlef

[GIO]

and thought like Gustav and Séverin mentioned that it could be a West Javanese blade.

Regards,
Detlef[/QUOTE]

I too lean towards a west Javanese blade.

[Sajen]

Good that I am not the only one who thought segaluh!

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

I have been following this discussion, and several times I have felt inclined to add a comment or two, but I've held back on that because really, I have nothing particularly positive to add. The reason for this lack of a defensible opinion is that I do not know exactly what the indicators are for a keris blade that is generally held to originate in Chana.

Chana?

Everybody has been referring to a place called Chinok, but my understanding is that the correct Thai name for Chinok is Chana. I have this understanding from a friend who is of Thai descent and who is currently living in Bangkok. He is mystified as to where the name "Chinok" comes from and his only suggestion was that it might have something to do with helicopters.

However, he is a pretty experienced collector of Peninsula & Bugis keris and he tells me that the keris that are generally attributed to Chana vary quite a bit in form, so much so that it is very difficult to find sufficient consistency in the tells (or identifiers) of these keris to be able to be definite about geographic point of origin.

My experience is principally with Javanese keris, and the Solonese tangguh system only recognises Keris from the Land of Jawa as being worthy of attention, the consequence of this is that when I try to classify a keris from outside Jawa all I have to help me is my own knowledge, and in keris from places other than Jawa/Madura & Bali that knowledge is slight, in my defence I plead that during the 70 or so years I have held an interest in keris, I have never been able to find the time, nor the motivation, to learn much about keris that originate in places other than those places that encompass the core keris culture.

If I apply my admittedly slight knowledge to Detlef's keris blade there are several things that are obvious:-

1) the kembang kacang is a very non-typical form.

2) the shape of the blumbangan varies on each side of the blade, on one side it is boto rubuh, on the other side it appears to be boto adeg; this in itself indicates that the maker of this blade had neither the necessity nor perhaps the ability to carve a keris that could be regarded as being of reasonably high quality. I would regard this blade as of village origin.

3) the very shallow luk if considered from a Javanese point of view do indeed tend to point towards a West Javanese or South Sumatera origin, but definitely not Segaluh, because the sirah cecak of a Segaluh keris is very rounded, and based upon what I believe I can see in the photos, this keris has a somewhat pointed sirah cecak. Additionally, even on the side of the blade with the boto rubuh blumbangan the distance between the center of the pesi and the front of the gandhik is insufficient to permit a classification of Segaluh.

4) If we set aside the Banten keris, the dominant West Jawa keris style is Pajajaran, there are several classifications of the Pajajaran keris, type 1 can have either boto adeg or boto rubuh blumbangan, but it is usually boto rubuh, type 2 has only boto rubuh blumbangan, but that blumbangan normally does nor display pamor, type 3 usually has a boto adeg blumbangan. Detlef's keris displays pamor in the blumbangan.

5) the way in which the pamor of this keris has been worked is not common in either West Jawa or in the Land of Jawa, but it is fairly common in the Peninsula, and in Sumatera, and in culturally Bugis keris.

If I consider Detlef's keris and bear in mind what I have written above, I feel that I would tend towards South Sumatera as the geographic point of origin for this keris. The peoples of the Archipelago did not & do not regard water as a barrier, but rather as a highway, thus West Jawa and South Sumatera are in Archipelago thought very close together.

One thing could cause me to form a different opinion, and that is if we could point to a number of keris that have a kembang kacang like the one on Detlef's keris, and that we definitely knew came from some specific place.

[Gustav]

Of course there is a probability for this blade to come from S Sumatra, yet the manipulations of pamor on this type of blades are more typical for Malay Peninsula, specifically northern Malay regions. As the sheath and hilt without any doubts are attributable to these regions, this seems for me to be the most probable place of origin for this blade.

Spellings for "Chenok" do vary a lot, but this is the first time I encounter spelling "Chinok".

[A. G. Maisey]

My error Gustav, other people in this thread have referred to Chenok, I've never heard of Chenok, or Chana, or Chinok & I was going on memory without checking the spelling that others had used first. In any case, all these names are transliterations, so it is possible that we could take half a dozen modern era people who express words in Roman text and get half a dozen different spellings.

I'm not even considering the dress, blades moved all over SE Asia, I'm only looking at the blade, and right now all I have to go on is my very limited experience in respect of a blade that displays the indicators that this blade displays.

[Sajen]

Thank you Alan for your thoughts about the blade in question and your very detailed execution.
When I first saw the blade, I was very sure that it was West Javanese or South Sumatran.
After I receive it and hold it in my hands I get my doubts.
I would go with Gustav that it is a so-called "Chenok" blade.

Again, thanks to all who contributed, it is/was a very interesting discussion!

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, once interpretation of standardised forms are removed from a dominant governing authority they tend to vary so widely that it becomes almost impossible to identify exactly what the point of either geographical or historical origin is. I'm not thinking of only keris here.

I think that this keris of yours probably falls into that basket.

I've looked at it -- only the blade -- and tried to apply what I think is a fairly solid foundation for analysis. My conclusion might be correct, partly correct, or totally wrong, but I have used a tool that is more than just an opinion based on generality.

This rigidity of logic might not be everybody's cup of tea, but I do feel that any opinion must be able to be supported by more than just subjective beliefs.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've looked at it -- only the blade -- and tried to apply what I think is a fairly solid foundation for analysis. My conclusion might be correct, partly correct, or totally wrong, but I have used a tool that is more than just an opinion based on generality.

This rigidity of logic might not be everybody's cup of tea, but I do feel that any opinion must be able to be supported by more than just subjective beliefs.

Exactly this course of action you use makes your comments worthy for me.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Detlef.