Caucasian / Circassian percussion rifle?

[estcrh]

I won this on yesterdays Morphys auction, I was originally going to bid on an Ottoman military sword but when I saw how high the bids were on some of the other swords I decided to bid on this just in case. Having looked for images of these Caucasian / Circassian firearms before I know how hard it is to find images, let alone information. I was hoping from the auction photos that someone could confirm that this is what it was described as since I can not tell the equally hard to find Persian versions from the Caucasian / Circassian ones.

Caucasian Percussion Rifle.
Caliber .70, 32-1/2" barrel. Single shot percussion rifle with a two-stage barrel with three brass capucines, one mould ring and one German silver band at breech. Highly figured stock with bone or ivory inlays at wedges, sides of tang and two lines around butt. Steel ramrod. Circular butt plate with screw and plate. Showing wear and age patina. Stock needs splice repair, as does lock.

[Oliver Pinchot]

This is actually Persian, Eric.
How to tell? It's difficult. The Persian form was adopted early on in the Caucasus, the primary differences being that the butt *generally* (but not invariably) drops more than the Caucasian and is *generally* (but not invariably) round in cross section (the Caucasian is most often oval.) Caucasian gun butts can also have a narrower, almost parallel profile.

Embellishment is usually, but not always, a good indicator of the region from which one of these comes. Persian guns tend to be decorated more simply, usually with bone or ivory geometrical inlays. They may also have fewer barrel bands, which are more often iron or brass. In the Caucasus, silver mounts, (plain, engraved, nielloed, and/ or gilded) were more often used.

The standout indicators here, however, are that your gun is fitted with a percussion lock and triggerguard, much more common in Persia and India than in the Caucasus, where miquelet locks with an unguarded, button trigger, continued in use up to the early 20th century.

While both types will often have finely wrought and embellished barrels, Persian longarms are often smoothbore, making them muskets, while Caucasian guns are often (but again, not always) rifled.

These are simply guidelines, unfortunately there are no hard and fast rules.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

This is actually Persian, Eric.
How to tell? It's difficult. The Persian form was adopted early on in the Caucasus, the primary differences being that the butt *generally* (but not invariably) drops more than the Caucasian and is *generally* (but not invariably) round in cross section (the Caucasian is most often oval.) Caucasian gun butts can also have a narrower, almost parallel profile.

Embellishment is usually, but not always, a good indicator of the region from which one of these comes. Persian guns tend to be decorated more simply, usually with bone or ivory geometrical inlays. They may also have fewer barrel bands, which are more often iron or brass. In the Caucasus, silver mounts, (plain, engraved, nielloed, and/ or gilded) were more often used.

The standout indicators here, however, are that your gun is fitted with a percussion lock and triggerguard, much more common in Persia and India than in the Caucasus, where miquelet locks with an unguarded, button trigger, continued in use up to the early 20th century.

While both types will often have finely wrought and embellished barrels, Persian longarms are often smoothbore, making them muskets, while Caucasian guns are often (but again, not always) rifled.

These are simply guidelines, unfortunately there are no hard and fast rules.

Oliver I was actually hoping that it was Persian but due to the limited amount of images available online I could not be sure, your book on the Wagner collection was the first place I looked, thanks for the info!!!

[rickystl]

Hi Estcrh.

What a nice find !!! Congratulations !!!! And I fully agree with Oliver's assessments above. I have found that Persian made -complete long guns - are even more difficult to locate than their Caucassion counterparts. Which is probably the reason for the difficulty in locating other Persian specimens.
Also, the gun should be a fairly simple restoration, should you decide to do so.
Again, really nice find.

Here is a pic of both a Caucasion and Persian long guns for comparison.
Rick

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Estcrh.

What a nice find !!! Congratulations !!!! And I fully agree with Oliver's assessments above. I have found that Persian made -complete long guns - are even more difficult to locate than their Caucassion counterparts. Which is probably the reason for the difficulty in locating other Persian specimens.
Also, the gun should be a fairly simple restoration, should you decide to do so.
Again, really nice find.

Here is a pic of both a Caucasion and Persian long guns for comparison.
Rick

Rick, thanks for your input, I did not see this one until the very last minute so I did not have much time to do any research. Needless to say, searching for "Persian" rifle, musket, matchlock, flintlock, percussion etc did not bring up many images. The round butt made me wonder if it was Persian but then I thought that there was no way they could mis-discribe it so badly.

Both of your examples are awesome, and quite rare, thanks for showing them.

I would like to at least have the stock repaired, any suggestions? I do not know of anyone were I live (Louisiana) who works on antique guns.

[estcrh]

While we are at it, how about this one, the owners says it is Caucasian but it seems to have a round butt, any chance this is Persian?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It certainly is a finely narrow problem when trying to work out the difference....

Pinterest suggest from the Met that the Gun below is..Quote''Caucasian (Kubachi, Dagestan) Flintlock, ca. 1800 to 1850, steel, silver-gilt, niello, gold, ivory, caliber, .56 in. (14.22 mm) Length, 52 in. (132.08 cm). This rifle was probably made in the Dagestani village of Kubachi, the principal armsmaking center in the Caucasus. The Arabic inscription on the barrel, "Owned by Abā Muslim Khān Shamkhāl," and the very high quality of the workmanship suggest that it belonged to a member of the family of the ruling prince (shāmkhāl). Met Museum."Unquote

I add for interest a powder flask from Caucasus regions noting similarities in Ottoman systems and in fact Omani...

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It certainly is a finely narrow problem when trying to work out the difference....

Pinterest suggest from the Met that the Gun below is..Quote''Caucasian (Kubachi, Dagestan) Flintlock, ca. 1800 to 1850, steel, silver-gilt, niello, gold, ivory, caliber, .56 in. (14.22 mm) Length, 52 in. (132.08 cm). This rifle was probably made in the Dagestani village of Kubachi, the principal armsmaking center in the Caucasus. The Arabic inscription on the barrel, "Owned by Abā Muslim Khān Shamkhāl," and the very high quality of the workmanship suggest that it belonged to a member of the family of the ruling prince (shāmkhāl). Met Museum."Unquote

I add for interest a powder flask from Caucasus regions noting similarities in Ottoman systems and in fact Omani...

Ibrahiim, you have to be little bit skeptical of many Met Museum descriptions, I have found a lot of mistakes, some the museum eventually corrected, some are still there.

When I made the image you posted I really had no choice but to use their description as I can not tell if it is actually a Caucasian or Persian gun. It would be nice to get some other opinions from some ot our more knowledgable members.

[Oliver Pinchot]

Eric, that one probably is Caucasian but without examining it in hand it's not a certainty.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Eric, that one probably is Caucasian but without examining it in hand it's not a certainty.

Thanks Oliver.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Indeed ... which is why I wrote..."It certainly is a finely narrow problem when trying to work out the difference".... The Met I tend to go along with... and it was the applied information I gleaned along with the picture....I see no problem regurgitating that as to miss it out rather defeats the object and since we are Forum ....and bearing in mind the proviso presented by Oliver ...I think it is reasonable to go along with...I mean not that there is anything wrong with having a go at these big organizations.. Blah!! Met...Who are they??

Meanwhile this is another excellent thread...great picture too!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Indeed ... which is why I wrote..."It certainly is a finely narrow problem when trying to work out the difference".... The Met I tend to go along with... and it was the applied information I gleaned along with the picture....I see no problem regurgitating that as to miss it out rather defeats the object and since we are Forum ....and bearing in mind the proviso presented by Oliver ...I think it is reasonable to go along with...I mean not that there is anything wrong with having a go at these big organizations.. Blah!! Met...Who are they??

Meanwhile this is another excellent thread...great picture too!

Well were ever it was originally made it is an absolutely fantastic example that has survived intact.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...759053ea24.jpg

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Rick, thanks for your input, I did not see this one until the very last minute so I did not have much time to do any research. Needless to say, searching for "Persian" rifle, musket, matchlock, flintlock, percussion etc did not bring up many images. The round butt made me wonder if it was Persian but then I thought that there was no way they could mis-discribe it so badly.

Both of your examples are awesome, and quite rare, thanks for showing them.

I would like to at least have the stock repaired, any suggestions? I do not know of anyone were I live (Louisiana) who works on antique guns.

Yes, the break in the forearm would be worth repairing. And the lock may need some work while at it. My gunsmith would be great for this, but he is down with medical issues at the moment. And lives in New Hampshire. But Louisiana is a popular state for muzzle loading shooters, and I should be able to locate someone for you. I'll PM you after I check my sources.
I still agree with Oliver that your gun is Persian. That it was made as a percussion, likely dates the gun post 1850. The more Europen style trigger and guard show just a bit of Western influence. A very interesting gun and worth a repair.
Rick.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by estcrh

While we are at it, how about this one, the owners says it is Caucasian but it seems to have a round butt, any chance this is Persian?

Even with the more extended drop to the butt stock, I believe this one is in fact Caucasian. The style of barrel bands, the unguarded button trigger, and the different wood/horn section at the butt cap, are all indications of a Caucassion long gun. Especially if the barrel is rifled.
Rick.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Yes, the break in the forearm would be worth repairing. And the lock may need some work while at it. My gunsmith would be great for this, but he is down with medical issues at the moment. And lives in New Hampshire. But Louisiana is a popular state for muzzle loading shooters, and I should be able to locate someone for you. I'll PM you after I check my sources.
I still agree with Oliver that your gun is Persian. That it was made as a percussion, likely dates the gun post 1850. The more Europen style trigger and guard show just a bit of Western influence. A very interesting gun and worth a repair.
Rick.

Rick, if by chance you do locate someone who could repair it in the proper manner I would appreciate it, even if in another state. As discussed in a previous thread, the Persian variety of matchlock, flintlock and percussion guns seem to have simply vanished from sight. I wanted to do a thread on them but its taken me months just to find a handful of images.

When the Persians started to equip their military with modern factory made guns the old ones seem to have been stripped down and the barrels sold off around the middle east, at least that is what seems to have happened as far as I can tell. At least with Ottoman guns there are a lot of remaining flintlocks but not so with the Persian guns, they must have done something with them or they would be turning up at auctions and in collections etc.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Rick, if by chance you do locate someone who could repair it in the proper manner I would appreciate it, even if in another state. As discussed in a previous thread, the Persian variety of matchlock, flintlock and percussion guns seem to have simply vanished from sight. I wanted to do a thread on them but its taken me months just to find a handful of images.

When the Persians started to equip their military with modern factory made guns the old ones seem to have been stripped down and the barrels sold off around the middle east, at least that is what seems to have happened as far as I can tell. At least with Ottoman guns there are a lot of remaining flintlocks but not so with the Persian guns, they must have done something with them or they would be turning up at auctions and in collections etc.

Yes, I'll put the word out to my sources this weekend when I return from a business trip. My gunsmith would be perfect for this, but will be down for at least a couple more months. But there are other competent ones. I'll let you know soon.
Persian Long Guns: Yes, I remember that Thread. Your guess as to what happened to all these guns is as good as any. It's a real mystery.
Rick

[estcrh]

FIREARMS in Persia. This article surveys the history and production of various firearms and artillery in Persia from their introduction to the 19th century. Originally Published: December 15, 1999, by Rudi Matthee.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...arms-i-history

Professor Rudi Matthee: The History of Firearms in Persia, This article by Professor Rudi Matthee first appeared in the Encyclopedia Iranica on December 15, 1999. Professor Matthee’s article surveys the history and production of various firearms and artillery in Persia from their introduction to the 19th century.

http://kavehfarrokh.com/iranica/mili...rms-in-persia/



Lexicon of Arms and Armor from Iran by Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani, 2010

http://kavehfarrokh.com/book-review/5770/

[estcrh]

I found this one awhile ago, it was located in Japan...Persian??

[Oliver Pinchot]

Yes, Persian. The bipod is after market, probably Afghan.
There was a strong European presence there during the first half of the 19th century. British, French, and to a lesser degree, Russian influence had its effect on the Qajars. Many flint longarms seem to have been converted to percussion at that time.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Yes, Persian. The bipod is after market, probably Afghan.
There was a strong European presence there during the first half of the 19th century. British, French, and to a lesser degree, Russian influence had its effect on the Qajars. Many flint longarms seem to have been converted to percussion at that time.

Thanks Oliver, one more for reference.