Keris and Hantus

TikiD · 2nd August 2005, 07:54 PM

Hello to all,

I'm a new member. It's exciting that so many here seem very learned in the ways of the keris. I own a book, "The Keris and other Malay Weapons," and have had a lot of my questions answered there, but I know many of you will have had personal experience or have read about things I have not. Thank you in advance for sharing your expertise.

Specifically, I'd love to know what people think about the Will of the keris. I do mean in a spiritual sense, as was believed hundreds of years ago when people really and truly believed in the keris' Will and treated the keris with high honor. To what lengths do you think a keris would go to achieve its Will?

Also, has anyone heard about or had experience with a hantu inhabiting a keris? I've read that these hantus can be familial spirits. I'm wondering if this did happen, if it would change the Will of the keris itself and How it would change it.

I'd be very interested in opinions on these topics. I own two keris myself: One a very battered five-luk blade with a java demam hilt, the other a pretty but poorly constructed 20th century blade, also five luks. (I don't think either is haunted, by the way, but the topic fascinates me.)

Thank you again.
TikiD

Raja Muda · 3rd August 2005, 03:16 AM

Greetings, Salam Perkenalan

I've broached this subjects with many people before. Some would dismiss it with skepticism and derision, while others would enthusiastically give their personal account of encounters with the keris's inner anima.
I understand among traditional Malays there is this concept of khadam or servant that resides within the keris. Sometimes this khadam would manifest itself in physical forms such as old men and appear in the dreams of the owner. This appearance is often regarded as a sign or alamat whether the keris gives its consent to reside with the owner or otherwise. There is this belief that if the khadam dislikes the owner, then, this gives rise to discomfort and causes problems for the owner, short of accidents happening around the house.
As I said, this is the popular belief amongst the Malays. Based on my readings, I understand that the Javanese have a more sophisticated, more complex and detailed system concerning the tuah or the luck of the keris, and I feel it would only be proper for a real Wong Jawa to enlighten us on this. I'm interested to know more myself.
Nowadays, there is some re-interpretation of this concept. What latent forces that resides within the keris is considered aura or energy and is often seen as an outward but invisible quality of its pamor. I have friends who resort to the unconventional method of asking a Qigong practitioner to detect the chi or energy in keris - an interesting meeting of two cultures and esoteric systems. I'm sure others have a lot to say on this matter as opinions differ.
To use the word hantu is a bit simplistic as people tend to lump any ghost, apparition, flesh eating monsters etc into this category. Perhaps someone can also help with the terminology.

TikiD · 3rd August 2005, 03:39 PM

Thank you, Raja Muda, for your comments and your welcome. I, too, would welcome the knowledge of a Wong Jawa.

To clarify, is it widely believed that all keris have an inner anima (something imbued when the empu crafts it)? I'm trying to understand if there's a distinction between a "regular" keris and one that might have a "hantu" (for lack of a better word). I always thought there was, but now I'm not so certain. Specifically, would you say that "khadam" and "hantu" can exist together in a blade?

That's very interesting what you said about chi and having the blade's energy assessed by a Qigong master.

I have another question: if one wanted their keris assessed for energy by an empu, how possible would this be? (Would the assessment be best done by an empu; I'm assuming.) I imagine true empus are not so easy to find these days.

Again, my thanks.
TikiD

Boedhi Adhitya · 4th August 2005, 06:47 AM

Salam..

Well, TikiD, you are asking a tought matter. Here in Java, keris experts propose several theories to explain the keris "magical" qualities. I quote some of those theories :

1. These magical qualities came directly from The Almighty, through the empus. While the empu making a keris, the empu fasting and praying, asking for the "magical qualities" to The Almighty. Thus, if his pray answered, "magical qualities" would be inherent to the blade, and might stay forever.

2. The qualities came from the materials used. Traditional old books about kerises wrote many different kind of irons, with their "magical" qualities. With his knowledges, empu selected the material which had a "magical qualities", then processed the material to strenghten it's power. He may also combined some different material to give certain effects. This kind of powers might be felt as "vibrations".

3. The qualities came from the empus or "orang sakti", "powerful man", might be considered as "Qigong Master", who then, "fill" the kerises with power. Thus, this kind of "power" might come later, and not originally came from empus/makers. This kind of power might be also felt as "vibrations".

4. The most favorite theory

, the power came from those "ghost", jinny, "khadam", "hantu" or anything, you name it

Consider the keris as a house, and those "unseen creatures" are it's resident. The empus or "dukun/orang sakti" may have a certain "agreement" before put those creatures, for example, "the residents" have obligations to help the keris' owner, while he is in troubles. And just like the human-being, those creatures may or may not comply with the agreement. Then, you may sue them

And just like the ordinary houses, the resident may not only one. They might be the whole families

Assesing keris power is a really subjective matter. A friend of mine, had brought his keris to several "dukun", the "orang sakti"/ shamans. Then, none of them saying a similar judgments about the keris' resident ! A dukun said, the resident is "an old, wise, man" while other said it is a female. Other said it's a young warrior while other even said there was none detected, and offering to "fill" the keris. Even the same dukun, with the same blade, may say something very different after several months later ! Well, you might ended up in confuse, yet you have spent your money a lot

Actually, it is the keris' owner himself who really knows about his kerises. But if you insist at doing so, I suggest you to find a friend or other who really know about keris or mastering an internal energy arts (such as master qigong or tai chi) and doesn't ask for money in doing such a thing.

Last but not least, personally, I believe in theory no. 1 and 2. While some creatures may reside in a blade, they are still a creature, and thus, subjected to death, and also have their own problems and fates. Until now, it's work for me, and it is OK

But if you really serious, I suggest you to master the exoteric things, then after you master it, it will naturally brings you to the esoteric realms. Many "troubled kerises" may be detected form exoteric view. That is, those "troubled kerises" bear a fatal flaws within them.

salam..

purwacarita · 19th August 2005, 04:06 PM

Hi, I understand that supranatural things are hardly accepted by most non native users of keris. I found my keris responded to Coggins, but the picture of it is an empty chair with color circle. Any help?

nechesh · 19th August 2005, 04:37 PM

Hi Purwacarita. I don't think it is so much that non-natives don't accept the supranatural (although certainly many don't

) as much as there is a lack of acceptance for the Coggins method as a reliable way of measuring such phenomenon. In my experience, true spiritual phenomenon cannot me put into words nor measured accurately by any known mechanical device. Does that mean it isn't there? I KNOW in my inner being that the "supranatural" things i have experienced in my lifetime are as real as anything else in this world. Attempts to prove them by scientific method are often frustrating and futile. What's more, in IMO, they are absolutely unnecessary. I know what i know and have no need to prove it to others. The "Amazing" Randi can keep his million dollar prize.

Ian · 19th August 2005, 08:59 PM

Boedhi Adhitya:

Thank you for such an enlightening perspective on the keris and its mystical properties, and for your personal thoughts. Your comments fill in a lot of gaps for me, and help explain the confusing and often contradictory comments I have heard over the years.

Ian.

purwacarita · 21st August 2005, 03:50 AM

Hi nechesh, When Ambalat crisis was happening, young people of Indonesia from many regions volunteered to civil patriotic gathering to side by side with the military defend the integrity of country. Television news programs showed how those youngsters were not even experienced and started their first semi military and both external and internal martial arts training. What surprised me is, (not really though), that the trainers from different regions were taped having similar demonstrations how their trainee's skin and tongue could not be breached by blade. Real new bee patriot trained to be instant suicidal immortal warrior in a few days as fast as how noodle is now instantly served in a minute.

Taking this fact back deep into history when bullets and bombs were superstitious though many more people already mastered invulnerable skin martial art, my imagination flew far into empu's twilight forgeries when they accomplished keris inhabited by force supposed to breach the skin as the only way out to save their communities in case sort warriors were proven a threat and a fight was not avoidable. Such keris called pertimi in Bali and never used in Barong Dance.

This theory explains historical manuscripts about young children of the past carried keris in their fashion. Not as piandel to magically support the bearer to attain greater positive virtues like courage, prowess, dignity etc which when overdosed might be misused by rhino skin people to start unnecessary fight to exercise their almighiness show off where is most cases of the youth, I think, but rather as a remark of remembrance that thicker skin of higher internal martial arts was still breach able. This in like an education to the young at that time to help them develop their positive virtues by overcoming the fear of still vulnerable rhino skin over theirs over keris, and followed righteous spiritual way of living.

In time people foud that mysterious energy of keris had influences to social life, till todays. Many people still believe that keris could magically help the bearer to have higher social or political status, higher business transaction frequencies, or become more charismatic or gentle, ... then tip the balance with greed well fed and need a little counterweight. Keris is sure can magically do those maybe, or is really a doorway to some spiritual dimensions or inhabited by souls perhaps ...but Balinese maintains pertimi proves that inhabited exotic force is always checking out, ...and without proper precautions what remains is usually nothing but spirit of astounding greed. And so there is terminology called dimaharkan or dimaskawinkan to hand over the keris to someone else to prevent the energy loss in return of favour condition. Well, I think of hundreds of reason of mahar, above is only the first one. The second one is money, the third one is money, ...100th is money. I have a friend whose father is sometimes awarded with keris as symbol of honor and gratitute after he donated to spiritual institutions. His keris is not many but none likely found in any bird markets. A good mahar and could be gurindam to deliver patriotic messages to other Indonesia leaders and former ones, you think you're nationalists, huh? Next year do come to Upacara Bendera in my place as I invite you to Independence Anniversary or otherwise I'll give you more frightening keris and please save people from your rhino skin. Or you may give me yours instead incase I forget to invite you.

~IBS

TikiD · 4th September 2005, 04:53 PM

Thank you, Boedhi Adhitya, for your thoughtful response. I apologize for my slow one. Your post is exceedingly helpful and thought-provoking, and I appreciate the time spent in sending it.

I still wonder: Could a true empu possibly detect these things in a blade? Would an empu be able to "appraise" a blade, including sensing a spirit? I understand that some appraisers may sense a spirit while others would not, but would the empu himself be considered the ultimate expert in these matters, as he knows what it takes to make the blade?

Thank you again.
TikiD

nechesh · 4th September 2005, 05:40 PM

TikiD, just what empu in particular are you considering taking such a blade to. I am afraid you better hurry up because their numbers are dwindling fast.

Dukkuns or other psychics or spiritualist might lay claim to being able to sense these things in a keris, but like appraisers, some will sense a spirit, some will not, and many will do it in a way that only leaves your wallet all that much lighter.

The bottom line is what do YOU or the owner of the keris feel. If you yourself cannot feel the spirit or energy, then what does it matter whether or not others can. Reality can sometimes be a very subjective thing.

I have a friend who has studied keris for a very long time know. While he has a keen understanding of these spiritual energies he has found himself immuned to their influences. As such people have brought him keris that where so "haunted" with "negative" energy that known psychics could not hold them without involuntarily flinging them against the wall. But these "bad" keris have no affect on him what-so-ever. So he has acquired some very nice keris because no one else seems to be able to handle them. They are not "bad" or "evil" or even "haunted" keris in HIS life. So i think the bottom line is what do YOU feel from any particular keris. Sit with the blade and meditate. Sleep with it under your pillow. Open youself up to what you call the "will" of the keris and you will understand what it means FOR YOU. No two people are exactly alike, nor will they have the exact same response to the same stimuli. The keris is a path you must seek out on your own. That isn't to say you shouldn't seek guidance, but no guide can tell you what only you yourself really feel. They can only cloud your judgement with their own impressions which may or MAY NOT apply to you. I'll say it once again. DIY. Do It Yourself.

2nd August 2005, 07:54 PM	#1
TikiD Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5	Keris and Hantus Hello to all, I'm a new member. It's exciting that so many here seem very learned in the ways of the keris. I own a book, "The Keris and other Malay Weapons," and have had a lot of my questions answered there, but I know many of you will have had personal experience or have read about things I have not. Thank you in advance for sharing your expertise. Specifically, I'd love to know what people think about the Will of the keris. I do mean in a spiritual sense, as was believed hundreds of years ago when people really and truly believed in the keris' Will and treated the keris with high honor. To what lengths do you think a keris would go to achieve its Will? Also, has anyone heard about or had experience with a hantu inhabiting a keris? I've read that these hantus can be familial spirits. I'm wondering if this did happen, if it would change the Will of the keris itself and How it would change it. I'd be very interested in opinions on these topics. I own two keris myself: One a very battered five-luk blade with a java demam hilt, the other a pretty but poorly constructed 20th century blade, also five luks. (I don't think either is haunted, by the way, but the topic fascinates me.) Thank you again. TikiD

3rd August 2005, 03:16 AM	#2
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Khadam Keris Greetings, Salam Perkenalan I've broached this subjects with many people before. Some would dismiss it with skepticism and derision, while others would enthusiastically give their personal account of encounters with the keris's inner anima. I understand among traditional Malays there is this concept of khadam or servant that resides within the keris. Sometimes this khadam would manifest itself in physical forms such as old men and appear in the dreams of the owner. This appearance is often regarded as a sign or alamat whether the keris gives its consent to reside with the owner or otherwise. There is this belief that if the khadam dislikes the owner, then, this gives rise to discomfort and causes problems for the owner, short of accidents happening around the house. As I said, this is the popular belief amongst the Malays. Based on my readings, I understand that the Javanese have a more sophisticated, more complex and detailed system concerning the tuah or the luck of the keris, and I feel it would only be proper for a real Wong Jawa to enlighten us on this. I'm interested to know more myself. Nowadays, there is some re-interpretation of this concept. What latent forces that resides within the keris is considered aura or energy and is often seen as an outward but invisible quality of its pamor. I have friends who resort to the unconventional method of asking a Qigong practitioner to detect the chi or energy in keris - an interesting meeting of two cultures and esoteric systems. I'm sure others have a lot to say on this matter as opinions differ. To use the word hantu is a bit simplistic as people tend to lump any ghost, apparition, flesh eating monsters etc into this category. Perhaps someone can also help with the terminology.

4th September 2005, 04:53 PM	#9
TikiD Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5	thank you! Thank you, Boedhi Adhitya, for your thoughtful response. I apologize for my slow one. Your post is exceedingly helpful and thought-provoking, and I appreciate the time spent in sending it. I still wonder: Could a true empu possibly detect these things in a blade? Would an empu be able to "appraise" a blade, including sensing a spirit? I understand that some appraisers may sense a spirit while others would not, but would the empu himself be considered the ultimate expert in these matters, as he knows what it takes to make the blade? Thank you again. TikiD

3rd August 2005, 03:39 PM	#3
TikiD Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5	Thank you, Raja Muda, for your comments and your welcome. I, too, would welcome the knowledge of a Wong Jawa. To clarify, is it widely believed that all keris have an inner anima (something imbued when the empu crafts it)? I'm trying to understand if there's a distinction between a "regular" keris and one that might have a "hantu" (for lack of a better word). I always thought there was, but now I'm not so certain. Specifically, would you say that "khadam" and "hantu" can exist together in a blade? That's very interesting what you said about chi and having the blade's energy assessed by a Qigong master. I have another question: if one wanted their keris assessed for energy by an empu, how possible would this be? (Would the assessment be best done by an empu; I'm assuming.) I imagine true empus are not so easy to find these days. Again, my thanks. TikiD

4th August 2005, 06:47 AM	#4
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Salam.. Well, TikiD, you are asking a tought matter. Here in Java, keris experts propose several theories to explain the keris "magical" qualities. I quote some of those theories : 1. These magical qualities came directly from The Almighty, through the empus. While the empu making a keris, the empu fasting and praying, asking for the "magical qualities" to The Almighty. Thus, if his pray answered, "magical qualities" would be inherent to the blade, and might stay forever. 2. The qualities came from the materials used. Traditional old books about kerises wrote many different kind of irons, with their "magical" qualities. With his knowledges, empu selected the material which had a "magical qualities", then processed the material to strenghten it's power. He may also combined some different material to give certain effects. This kind of powers might be felt as "vibrations". 3. The qualities came from the empus or "orang sakti", "powerful man", might be considered as "Qigong Master", who then, "fill" the kerises with power. Thus, this kind of "power" might come later, and not originally came from empus/makers. This kind of power might be also felt as "vibrations". 4. The most favorite theory , the power came from those "ghost", jinny, "khadam", "hantu" or anything, you name it Consider the keris as a house, and those "unseen creatures" are it's resident. The empus or "dukun/orang sakti" may have a certain "agreement" before put those creatures, for example, "the residents" have obligations to help the keris' owner, while he is in troubles. And just like the human-being, those creatures may or may not comply with the agreement. Then, you may sue them And just like the ordinary houses, the resident may not only one. They might be the whole families Assesing keris power is a really subjective matter. A friend of mine, had brought his keris to several "dukun", the "orang sakti"/ shamans. Then, none of them saying a similar judgments about the keris' resident ! A dukun said, the resident is "an old, wise, man" while other said it is a female. Other said it's a young warrior while other even said there was none detected, and offering to "fill" the keris. Even the same dukun, with the same blade, may say something very different after several months later ! Well, you might ended up in confuse, yet you have spent your money a lot Actually, it is the keris' owner himself who really knows about his kerises. But if you insist at doing so, I suggest you to find a friend or other who really know about keris or mastering an internal energy arts (such as master qigong or tai chi) and doesn't ask for money in doing such a thing. Last but not least, personally, I believe in theory no. 1 and 2. While some creatures may reside in a blade, they are still a creature, and thus, subjected to death, and also have their own problems and fates. Until now, it's work for me, and it is OK But if you really serious, I suggest you to master the exoteric things, then after you master it, it will naturally brings you to the esoteric realms. Many "troubled kerises" may be detected form exoteric view. That is, those "troubled kerises" bear a fatal flaws within them. salam..

19th August 2005, 04:06 PM	#5
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi, I understand that supranatural things are hardly accepted by most non native users of keris. I found my keris responded to Coggins, but the picture of it is an empty chair with color circle. Any help?

19th August 2005, 04:37 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Purwacarita. I don't think it is so much that non-natives don't accept the supranatural (although certainly many don't ) as much as there is a lack of acceptance for the Coggins method as a reliable way of measuring such phenomenon. In my experience, true spiritual phenomenon cannot me put into words nor measured accurately by any known mechanical device. Does that mean it isn't there? I KNOW in my inner being that the "supranatural" things i have experienced in my lifetime are as real as anything else in this world. Attempts to prove them by scientific method are often frustrating and futile. What's more, in IMO, they are absolutely unnecessary. I know what i know and have no need to prove it to others. The "Amazing" Randi can keep his million dollar prize.

19th August 2005, 08:59 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Boedhi Adhitya: Thank you for such an enlightening perspective on the keris and its mystical properties, and for your personal thoughts. Your comments fill in a lot of gaps for me, and help explain the confusing and often contradictory comments I have heard over the years. Ian.

21st August 2005, 03:50 AM	#8
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi nechesh, When Ambalat crisis was happening, young people of Indonesia from many regions volunteered to civil patriotic gathering to side by side with the military defend the integrity of country. Television news programs showed how those youngsters were not even experienced and started their first semi military and both external and internal martial arts training. What surprised me is, (not really though), that the trainers from different regions were taped having similar demonstrations how their trainee's skin and tongue could not be breached by blade. Real new bee patriot trained to be instant suicidal immortal warrior in a few days as fast as how noodle is now instantly served in a minute. Taking this fact back deep into history when bullets and bombs were superstitious though many more people already mastered invulnerable skin martial art, my imagination flew far into empu's twilight forgeries when they accomplished keris inhabited by force supposed to breach the skin as the only way out to save their communities in case sort warriors were proven a threat and a fight was not avoidable. Such keris called pertimi in Bali and never used in Barong Dance. This theory explains historical manuscripts about young children of the past carried keris in their fashion. Not as piandel to magically support the bearer to attain greater positive virtues like courage, prowess, dignity etc which when overdosed might be misused by rhino skin people to start unnecessary fight to exercise their almighiness show off where is most cases of the youth, I think, but rather as a remark of remembrance that thicker skin of higher internal martial arts was still breach able. This in like an education to the young at that time to help them develop their positive virtues by overcoming the fear of still vulnerable rhino skin over theirs over keris, and followed righteous spiritual way of living. In time people foud that mysterious energy of keris had influences to social life, till todays. Many people still believe that keris could magically help the bearer to have higher social or political status, higher business transaction frequencies, or become more charismatic or gentle, ... then tip the balance with greed well fed and need a little counterweight. Keris is sure can magically do those maybe, or is really a doorway to some spiritual dimensions or inhabited by souls perhaps ...but Balinese maintains pertimi proves that inhabited exotic force is always checking out, ...and without proper precautions what remains is usually nothing but spirit of astounding greed. And so there is terminology called dimaharkan or dimaskawinkan to hand over the keris to someone else to prevent the energy loss in return of favour condition. Well, I think of hundreds of reason of mahar, above is only the first one. The second one is money, the third one is money, ...100th is money. I have a friend whose father is sometimes awarded with keris as symbol of honor and gratitute after he donated to spiritual institutions. His keris is not many but none likely found in any bird markets. A good mahar and could be gurindam to deliver patriotic messages to other Indonesia leaders and former ones, you think you're nationalists, huh? Next year do come to Upacara Bendera in my place as I invite you to Independence Anniversary or otherwise I'll give you more frightening keris and please save people from your rhino skin. Or you may give me yours instead incase I forget to invite you. ~IBS

4th September 2005, 05:40 PM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	TikiD, just what empu in particular are you considering taking such a blade to. I am afraid you better hurry up because their numbers are dwindling fast. Dukkuns or other psychics or spiritualist might lay claim to being able to sense these things in a keris, but like appraisers, some will sense a spirit, some will not, and many will do it in a way that only leaves your wallet all that much lighter. The bottom line is what do YOU or the owner of the keris feel. If you yourself cannot feel the spirit or energy, then what does it matter whether or not others can. Reality can sometimes be a very subjective thing. I have a friend who has studied keris for a very long time know. While he has a keen understanding of these spiritual energies he has found himself immuned to their influences. As such people have brought him keris that where so "haunted" with "negative" energy that known psychics could not hold them without involuntarily flinging them against the wall. But these "bad" keris have no affect on him what-so-ever. So he has acquired some very nice keris because no one else seems to be able to handle them. They are not "bad" or "evil" or even "haunted" keris in HIS life. So i think the bottom line is what do YOU feel from any particular keris. Sit with the blade and meditate. Sleep with it under your pillow. Open youself up to what you call the "will" of the keris and you will understand what it means FOR YOU. No two people are exactly alike, nor will they have the exact same response to the same stimuli. The keris is a path you must seek out on your own. That isn't to say you shouldn't seek guidance, but no guide can tell you what only you yourself really feel. They can only cloud your judgement with their own impressions which may or MAY NOT apply to you. I'll say it once again. DIY. Do It Yourself.