Just Acquired 2 Kris' & 2 Kalinga axes - Seeking help...

laEspadaAncha · 18th February 2010, 06:35 PM

Good morning, afternoon, and/or evening to all:

Yesterday I had the good fortune of acquiring the collection of a late retired full bird Col. who had served as the defense attache to the US Embassy in Manila during the 1950s and 1960s. He was one of the POWs who had survived the Bataan Death March in '42. In fact, he was the Capt. (at the time) who, along with a chaplain held there, helped document and hide photographs and illustrations of the atrocities at Camp O'Donnell. He was a war hero, and revered by the body politic in Manila. When he returned as the defense attache to the embassy, he was greeted as such. Many the Filipino scouts with whom he had served in WWII had reached command positions, including several who had reached the rank of General. I enjoyed spending several hours with his daughter, looking through photo albums and hearing the stories of how she and her siblings, as young teenagers, along with her father and VIPs out of Manila visited various insular tribal societies, where her father was again greeted and treated as an honored guest. She told of how upon meeting a headhunter tribe in Luzon, her father told her, "whatever it is they offer you to eat, eat it."

Long of the short - these few items have a wonderful provenance. His daughter, now in her 60s, fondly recalls how tribal leaders would bestow gifts upon her father. This small assortment I acquired includes several pieces I believe to have been such gifts. I have attached photos of five of the pieces: two kris', two Kalinga axes, and one knife that does not match any online published references I have found. According to his daughter, he maintained and cared for these until a couple years before his passing.

Thank you to the forum and it's guide in distinguishing between authentic and "tourist trade" Kalinga axes, which I studied before going to view the pieces. They are indeed hand-forged, and vary in thickness from 5+ mm to +/- 3mm. When you run your hand across their surface(s) or view them at obtuse angles in the light, the rippling along the surface is obvious and apparent. They are in fact a near-identical match to the 19th-century example featured in the Macao Museum of Art exhibit ("History of Steel in Eastern Asia".

But what I am writing to ask regards the tribal and (specific) geographical affiliation of the two kris'. One of these will be added to my collection. I would like to be able to make the best informed decision possible - that is where my respect for the body of knowledge inherent to the member base of this forum comes into play.

The first of the two, and the one I am intuitively inclined to keep, is in the better condition of the two. Its blade measured approximately 19 15/16 inches in length; the hilt measures an additional 4 3/8 inches (OAL slightly over 24 inches). The blade tapers evenly from approx. 1 13/16 inches at the first luk to 1 1/4 inches at the last. Similarly, the blade has a(n umeasured) distal taper from the gangya (which measures approx. 5 inches in width and is a separate and distinct piece from the blade) to the tip. The hilt is mounted in ivory with chased cylindrical brass ferules both top and bottom. There is another chased (copper?) ring that matches the stirrup above the brass ferule.

I will include photos of the other two items in question in successive posts once I return in a couple hours. Photos of the first kris to immediately follow:

As always, I greatly and humbly appreciate any and all knowledge the members here may have to share with me, and thank you in advance for the same. I have to run, but will be eagerly revisiting this thread this afternoon in anticipation of your feedback.

Best Regards,

Chris

VANDOO · 18th February 2010, 08:24 PM

A NICE COLLECTION AND A GREAT STORY.
THE KRIS YOU HAVE CHOSEN HAS A NON TRADITIONAL HANDLE THAT IS NOT AS OLD AS THE BLADE. THE GRIP APPEARS TO BE BONE OR PERHAPS DEER ANTLER NOT IVORY. CLOSER PICTURES OF THE GRIP AND METAL WORK ON THE HANDLE WILL HELP FOR EXACT INFO. THE HANDLE AND BACA BACA STRAP ARE A MORE RECENT UP GRADE AND THE STATUS CAN BE DETERMINED BY THE MATERIALS USED. HIGH STATUS GOLD OR SWASSA, SILVER AND IVORY. LOWER STATUS AND MOSTLY FOR FLASHY LOOKS BONE, ANTLER, COPPER, BRASS. A CLOSE UP OF THE GANJA AREA OF THE BLADE WILL ALSO HELP THE EXPERTS MAKE ACCURATE OBSERVATIONS.
PERHPAS SOME PICTURES OF THE OTHER KRIS WHICH APPEARS TO BE A GOOD OLD USED TRADITIONAL WEAPON WILL GIVE YOU THE INFORMATION TO HELP YOU MAKE THE BEST DECISION.

I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THE PICTURES OF THE TWO HEAD AXS AND THE KRIS.

laEspadaAncha · 18th February 2010, 10:10 PM

Hello Vandoo and thank you for the response. I just returned and will take some more pictures of the first kris shortly - sounds like I might have to hold off for the time being on deciding which to keep...

In the meantime, I have included photos of the second kris in this post.

The second kris has seen better days. However, as there was little active rust or corrosion when I took delivery of these and they were for the most part stabilized, I am of the opinion the deterioration of the blade had taken place some time ago, long before I took possession of it (though how long ago I do not know). The blade of this kris measures approx. 21 3/8 inches in length, with an OAL of 27 inches. Unlike the other example, the gangya (sp? ganja?), which measures approx. 4 inches across, is integrated into the blade. There no readily apparent distal taper that runs the length of the blade as there is with the first example. The blade does appear to taper in width, though not as much as the other; furthermore, the deterioration and blade loss makes such a measurement (at least to any degree of accuracy) unreliable IMO. The hilt treatment is obviously different and far less ornate. It is also somewhat lighter than the other kris.

I'll post some pictures of the Odd Knife in the next post, after which I'll take some close-up photos of the first kris (and the axe heads).

Battara · 18th February 2010, 10:58 PM

Congratulations on this collection! All the pieces so far are WWII. You are right in that the head axes are Kalinga.

Vandoo accurately identified the first kris as bone or stag. The blade is older than WWII (perhaps turn of the century) and looks to be Maranao. The baka-baka clamp and one fitting is copper and the others brass - all later to the blade. The band on the scabbard (also made later) is aluminum and is missing the bottom band.

The last kris is more recent - perhaps 1940s? It looks to be Sulu in origin.

Hope this helps.

laEspadaAncha · 18th February 2010, 11:16 PM

Hi Battara, and thank you for the information... I hope you will stick around for a few while I upload the close-up photos of the ganja (sp?) of both kris' shortly.

First, I have included a couple photos of the knife I am unable to identify. There are English / Latin alphabet characters on the obverse, in two lines - while I cannot make out the top line, the bottom line simply reads, "IS." The blade measures 10 1/4 inches in length, and is 2 1/4 inches wide at the hilt. The spine measures 5/16 of an inch at the hilt and evenly tapers to the tip. (Overcleaned) Brass ferule with seven facets, and a large horn grip. Steel (or iron?) pommel cap is also seven-sided; tang button is integral to the pommel cap and is also faceted with seven sides. The tang is peened over the button. Measures slightly under 17 inches overall.

I'm about to upload the close-up photos of the kris'... One thing I have noticed in taking these most recent photos is how ridiculously overcleaned the furniture is - presumably by the previous owner, as his daughter hadn't bothered to remove the superficial surface rust that had begun to accumulate on most of them...

Next post forthcoming!

laEspadaAncha · 18th February 2010, 11:29 PM

Okay - here are some close-up photos of the ganjas of each kris. The first picture shows the ferule and grip of the first kris. You can see in this photo where the surface patina had been removed from the metal. Due to the verde patina, I presume the top-most ring is copper.

I am looking forward to hearing if these photos further validate the previous attribution and age estimation.

In previewing my post before submitting it, I noticed Bill's input, and thank you for the same... I, too, had the distinct impression they had been overcleaned, though I believe said cleaning was performed b the late Col., not his daughter (for reasons mentioned above). In treating for the light surface rust present when I picked them up, I used the good 'ol standard of 3-in-1 and #0000, with just enough work to remove any active rust.

So which one would you guys keep, and why?

I'll next post a few pictures of one of the axes...

Thanks again,

Chris

Bill · 18th February 2010, 11:05 PM

I agree with Vandoo. It looks like both blades were treated with a powerful cleaner to remove rust. The first blade appears older but as Vandoo mentioned the fittings are new. It looks like someone used lost wax casting using a copper alloy for the stirrup.
The second blade is mid 20thC & a lot of those blades were made with recycled steel, this one had a lot of deep rust, leaving the major pits. The scabbard once had MOP or turtle shell, now missing.

Rick · 19th February 2010, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hello Vandoo and thank you for the response. I just returned and will take some more pictures of the first kris shortly - sounds like I might have to hold off for the time being on deciding which to keep...

In the meantime, I have included photos of the second kris in this post.

The second kris has seen better days. However, as there was little active rust or corrosion when I took delivery of these and they were for the most part stabilized, I am of the opinion the deterioration of the blade had taken place some time ago, long before I took possession of it (though how long ago I do not know). The blade of this kris measures approx. 21 3/8 inches in length, with an OAL of 27 inches. Unlike the other example, the gangya (sp? ganja?), which measures approx. 4 inches across, is integrated into the blade. There no readily apparent distal taper that runs the length of the blade as there is with the first example. The blade does appear to taper in width, though not as much as the other; furthermore, the deterioration and blade loss makes such a measurement (at least to any degree of accuracy) unreliable IMO. The hilt treatment is obviously different and far less ornate. It is also somewhat lighter than the other kris.

I'll post some pictures of the Odd Knife in the next post, after which I'll take some close-up photos of the first kris (and the axe heads).

Here's another kris from that era .
I believe your's has lost its M.O.P. decorations .
This example I show is a plain one. pattern welded of many layers .
Razor sharp (the sharpest of all my Moro krisses), a real user .

laEspadaAncha · 19th February 2010, 02:51 AM

Hi Rick,

Thank you for posting that example of yours for comparison - I see some definite similarities.

I have one other Sulu kris that is heavy, huge, and MoP-hilted... the MoP panelling on the pommel on that example is held into place by pairs of small pins/nails. By contrast, this one (the one of mine you reference in your post) shows no indication of ever having been perforated (unlike the scabbard, which still has retaining pins).

When I look closely at the thread-over-cloth covering the lower half of the grip, it looks as if the wrapping may be prematurely truncated, as it is tied off at the midway point of the grip... maybe at one time it covered the whole grip?

Battara · 19th February 2010, 02:52 AM

Just a note: not all of the WWII+ scabbards had MOP. Many just were plain wood.

With the close up pictures of the head axes, I can see the brass inlay. They may be a little older than WWII.

Don't know what to tell you about the knife.

Rick · 19th February 2010, 03:14 AM

I think the Kalingas are the real prize here .

Yes, I suspect the grip wrap was probably full length .

18th February 2010, 06:35 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Just Acquired 2 Kris' & 2 Kalinga axes - Seeking help... Good morning, afternoon, and/or evening to all: Yesterday I had the good fortune of acquiring the collection of a late retired full bird Col. who had served as the defense attache to the US Embassy in Manila during the 1950s and 1960s. He was one of the POWs who had survived the Bataan Death March in '42. In fact, he was the Capt. (at the time) who, along with a chaplain held there, helped document and hide photographs and illustrations of the atrocities at Camp O'Donnell. He was a war hero, and revered by the body politic in Manila. When he returned as the defense attache to the embassy, he was greeted as such. Many the Filipino scouts with whom he had served in WWII had reached command positions, including several who had reached the rank of General. I enjoyed spending several hours with his daughter, looking through photo albums and hearing the stories of how she and her siblings, as young teenagers, along with her father and VIPs out of Manila visited various insular tribal societies, where her father was again greeted and treated as an honored guest. She told of how upon meeting a headhunter tribe in Luzon, her father told her, "whatever it is they offer you to eat, eat it." Long of the short - these few items have a wonderful provenance. His daughter, now in her 60s, fondly recalls how tribal leaders would bestow gifts upon her father. This small assortment I acquired includes several pieces I believe to have been such gifts. I have attached photos of five of the pieces: two kris', two Kalinga axes, and one knife that does not match any online published references I have found. According to his daughter, he maintained and cared for these until a couple years before his passing. Thank you to the forum and it's guide in distinguishing between authentic and "tourist trade" Kalinga axes, which I studied before going to view the pieces. They are indeed hand-forged, and vary in thickness from 5+ mm to +/- 3mm. When you run your hand across their surface(s) or view them at obtuse angles in the light, the rippling along the surface is obvious and apparent. They are in fact a near-identical match to the 19th-century example featured in the Macao Museum of Art exhibit ("History of Steel in Eastern Asia". But what I am writing to ask regards the tribal and (specific) geographical affiliation of the two kris'. One of these will be added to my collection. I would like to be able to make the best informed decision possible - that is where my respect for the body of knowledge inherent to the member base of this forum comes into play. The first of the two, and the one I am intuitively inclined to keep, is in the better condition of the two. Its blade measured approximately 19 15/16 inches in length; the hilt measures an additional 4 3/8 inches (OAL slightly over 24 inches). The blade tapers evenly from approx. 1 13/16 inches at the first luk to 1 1/4 inches at the last. Similarly, the blade has a(n umeasured) distal taper from the gangya (which measures approx. 5 inches in width and is a separate and distinct piece from the blade) to the tip. The hilt is mounted in ivory with chased cylindrical brass ferules both top and bottom. There is another chased (copper?) ring that matches the stirrup above the brass ferule. I will include photos of the other two items in question in successive posts once I return in a couple hours. Photos of the first kris to immediately follow: As always, I greatly and humbly appreciate any and all knowledge the members here may have to share with me, and thank you in advance for the same. I have to run, but will be eagerly revisiting this thread this afternoon in anticipation of your feedback. Best Regards, Chris

19th February 2010, 03:14 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I think the Kalingas are the real prize here . Yes, I suspect the grip wrap was probably full length . Attached Images

18th February 2010, 08:24 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A NICE COLLECTION AND A GREAT STORY. THE KRIS YOU HAVE CHOSEN HAS A NON TRADITIONAL HANDLE THAT IS NOT AS OLD AS THE BLADE. THE GRIP APPEARS TO BE BONE OR PERHAPS DEER ANTLER NOT IVORY. CLOSER PICTURES OF THE GRIP AND METAL WORK ON THE HANDLE WILL HELP FOR EXACT INFO. THE HANDLE AND BACA BACA STRAP ARE A MORE RECENT UP GRADE AND THE STATUS CAN BE DETERMINED BY THE MATERIALS USED. HIGH STATUS GOLD OR SWASSA, SILVER AND IVORY. LOWER STATUS AND MOSTLY FOR FLASHY LOOKS BONE, ANTLER, COPPER, BRASS. A CLOSE UP OF THE GANJA AREA OF THE BLADE WILL ALSO HELP THE EXPERTS MAKE ACCURATE OBSERVATIONS. PERHPAS SOME PICTURES OF THE OTHER KRIS WHICH APPEARS TO BE A GOOD OLD USED TRADITIONAL WEAPON WILL GIVE YOU THE INFORMATION TO HELP YOU MAKE THE BEST DECISION. I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THE PICTURES OF THE TWO HEAD AXS AND THE KRIS.

18th February 2010, 10:10 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hello Vandoo and thank you for the response. I just returned and will take some more pictures of the first kris shortly - sounds like I might have to hold off for the time being on deciding which to keep... In the meantime, I have included photos of the second kris in this post. The second kris has seen better days. However, as there was little active rust or corrosion when I took delivery of these and they were for the most part stabilized, I am of the opinion the deterioration of the blade had taken place some time ago, long before I took possession of it (though how long ago I do not know). The blade of this kris measures approx. 21 3/8 inches in length, with an OAL of 27 inches. Unlike the other example, the gangya (sp? ganja?), which measures approx. 4 inches across, is integrated into the blade. There no readily apparent distal taper that runs the length of the blade as there is with the first example. The blade does appear to taper in width, though not as much as the other; furthermore, the deterioration and blade loss makes such a measurement (at least to any degree of accuracy) unreliable IMO. The hilt treatment is obviously different and far less ornate. It is also somewhat lighter than the other kris. I'll post some pictures of the Odd Knife in the next post, after which I'll take some close-up photos of the first kris (and the axe heads).

18th February 2010, 10:58 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Congratulations on this collection! All the pieces so far are WWII. You are right in that the head axes are Kalinga. Vandoo accurately identified the first kris as bone or stag. The blade is older than WWII (perhaps turn of the century) and looks to be Maranao. The baka-baka clamp and one fitting is copper and the others brass - all later to the blade. The band on the scabbard (also made later) is aluminum and is missing the bottom band. The last kris is more recent - perhaps 1940s? It looks to be Sulu in origin. Hope this helps.

18th February 2010, 11:16 PM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Battara, and thank you for the information... I hope you will stick around for a few while I upload the close-up photos of the ganja (sp?) of both kris' shortly. First, I have included a couple photos of the knife I am unable to identify. There are English / Latin alphabet characters on the obverse, in two lines - while I cannot make out the top line, the bottom line simply reads, "IS." The blade measures 10 1/4 inches in length, and is 2 1/4 inches wide at the hilt. The spine measures 5/16 of an inch at the hilt and evenly tapers to the tip. (Overcleaned) Brass ferule with seven facets, and a large horn grip. Steel (or iron?) pommel cap is also seven-sided; tang button is integral to the pommel cap and is also faceted with seven sides. The tang is peened over the button. Measures slightly under 17 inches overall. I'm about to upload the close-up photos of the kris'... One thing I have noticed in taking these most recent photos is how ridiculously overcleaned the furniture is - presumably by the previous owner, as his daughter hadn't bothered to remove the superficial surface rust that had begun to accumulate on most of them... Next post forthcoming!

18th February 2010, 11:29 PM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Okay - here are some close-up photos of the ganjas of each kris. The first picture shows the ferule and grip of the first kris. You can see in this photo where the surface patina had been removed from the metal. Due to the verde patina, I presume the top-most ring is copper. I am looking forward to hearing if these photos further validate the previous attribution and age estimation. In previewing my post before submitting it, I noticed Bill's input, and thank you for the same... I, too, had the distinct impression they had been overcleaned, though I believe said cleaning was performed b the late Col., not his daughter (for reasons mentioned above). In treating for the light surface rust present when I picked them up, I used the good 'ol standard of 3-in-1 and #0000, with just enough work to remove any active rust. So which one would you guys keep, and why? I'll next post a few pictures of one of the axes... Thanks again, Chris

18th February 2010, 11:05 PM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I agree with Vandoo. It looks like both blades were treated with a powerful cleaner to remove rust. The first blade appears older but as Vandoo mentioned the fittings are new. It looks like someone used lost wax casting using a copper alloy for the stirrup. The second blade is mid 20thC & a lot of those blades were made with recycled steel, this one had a lot of deep rust, leaving the major pits. The scabbard once had MOP or turtle shell, now missing.

19th February 2010, 02:51 AM	#9
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Rick, Thank you for posting that example of yours for comparison - I see some definite similarities. I have one other Sulu kris that is heavy, huge, and MoP-hilted... the MoP panelling on the pommel on that example is held into place by pairs of small pins/nails. By contrast, this one (the one of mine you reference in your post) shows no indication of ever having been perforated (unlike the scabbard, which still has retaining pins). When I look closely at the thread-over-cloth covering the lower half of the grip, it looks as if the wrapping may be prematurely truncated, as it is tied off at the midway point of the grip... maybe at one time it covered the whole grip?

19th February 2010, 02:52 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Just a note: not all of the WWII+ scabbards had MOP. Many just were plain wood. With the close up pictures of the head axes, I can see the brass inlay. They may be a little older than WWII. Don't know what to tell you about the knife.