Sword ID Indian,English, Arabian?

mykeris · 1st September 2006, 05:53 AM

I got this sword from a Malay family in Malaysia. Hopefully to get your professional opinion on what kind of sword is this. Thanks in advance.

mykeris · 1st September 2006, 06:03 AM

More pictures. Length in scabbard 36 inches, Length of blade 32 1/2 inches, width of blade 1 1/2 inches. About one quarter on top of blade is sharp (like the Malay Tempius) while the bottom edge is very sharp.

Alam Shah · 1st September 2006, 06:31 AM

I'm no professional, but this is what I think.

The hilt, looks like a Batak Piso Pedang hilt. Normally the blade is curved. This example have a straight blade. The scabbard is unusual but was made for the blade, Malay-styled. Other more knowledgeable forumite can fill-in...

ariel · 1st September 2006, 04:39 PM

I fully agree. Good catch. I certainly would not kick it out of my collection. I have a Piso Podang with old European straight blade: Portugese?
Is the blade plated?

katana · 1st September 2006, 05:16 PM

The hilt has 'similar design' elements to the Tulwar.....but less restrictive...no large disc pommel. Is there any connection?

ariel · 1st September 2006, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

The hilt has 'similar design' elements to the Tulwar.....but less restrictive...no large disc pommel. Is there any connection?

This is a direct descendant. This hilt was brought to Sumatra by the Hindus. Elgood discusses an Indian sword with the same handle.

B.I · 1st September 2006, 07:01 PM

nice sword.
think this is definately rick's (rswords) territory, as i know he's done some research on these. they take direct influence from the early tulwar form of the 16thC (elgood shows a genuine moghul one in his latest book).
the blade looks as if its been cut down (the fullers travel to the end). wonder if the blade was taken from a firangi, as the style is of the same type.
i've always loved the shape of these things, maybe because i like early indian pieces.

edit -
ariel, we crossed posts, and you got in there first with the elgood link

katana · 1st September 2006, 07:31 PM

Thankyou both ...Ariel and B.I. ....I thought the hilt was too similar to be coincidence.

Battara · 1st September 2006, 08:30 PM

Not unusual at all to have a Euro blade on these.

Ian · 1st September 2006, 11:35 PM

Congrats. Nice example and unusual balde.

John Crosby (rhysmichael) has a growing collection of these swords and would be another good resource person for further information.

Ian

RhysMichael · 3rd September 2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Congrats. Nice example and unusual balde.

John Crosby (rhysmichael) has a growing collection of these swords and would be another good resource person for further information.

Ian

Thanks for the kind words Ian but I think most of what I could tell them has already been said. I do like the way the woods were mated at the mouth of the scabbard rather than making it all from a single piece of wood. A nice sword,

B.I · 4th September 2006, 12:00 AM

hi,
i cant believe there isnt more information to be offered. if not on this particular sword, but on this type in general. its not indian, and so i have never spent much time with them, but as a descendant from a very important indian form, i think they are fascinating.
jim and rick (stroud) - please step up (sorry, or anyone else?) as i would love to know more.

also, i had assumed this to be a brass hilt, as most were. but from the tang button and the detached pommel, it seems to be gilt. is this the case? what material is the hilt made from?

RhysMichael · 4th September 2006, 12:23 AM

Charles Saunders may also be able to add a great deal about these as I recall he has some great examples

Well as I said above all I know has mostly been added. This is called a piso podang by stone and von Zonneveld , The curved ones are referred to by Gardner as "pedang shamshir" ( G. B. Gardner in KERIS AND OTHER MALAY WEAPONS). Piso may be a variant of the word pisau , and podang peudeung and pedang certainly have similar roots ( in my mind at least ) .
With Piso Podang the hilt is usually cast in one piece where the hilt of many tulwar are cast in two pieces and joined . They are known to have local blades, indian blades, european blades and even rarely wootz blades. These swords (Piso Podang) are most commanly found amongst the Batak in Sumatra. However, there are appearantly some references that do show Iban Dayak carrying Piso Podang. It should be noted that the Batak are non-islamic( Actually Batak is a general name for 6 groups with different cultural and linguistic characteristics, but they believe in a descent of a common ancestor) , and most references to them do not tell of their origin but do talk of the Hindu and Chinese influence. It is believed this sword form came through the Hindu influence as noted above

Some links on it
http://blade.japet.com/Pedang-Podang.htm
http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/pedang_sab/ped08.htm

Some other pictures of these
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=960

There are variants of the hilt
http://img13.photobucket.com/albums/...d/pisohilt.jpg

B.I · 4th September 2006, 01:12 AM

thanks RhysMichael,
the first link is the most interesting, as it appears to have a pretty early example (although i would love to see a closer image). most i have seen seem to be of a later age. as their influence came from an early indian hilt form, which 'died' out, it must have travelled across in the 16thC. so, there must be early examples out there. are you familiar with any. the ont you show is a great and typical example, but cant see it dating before the 18thC (or maybe later?)
the one in elgoods book is definately indian and 16thC, and is a great forerunner of all of these swords, as the form is almost identical.

mykeris · 4th September 2006, 04:26 AM

Here some more close-up pics of the hilt. This sword actually was acquired from an old Minangkabau family living in Negeri Sembilan, Malaysia. It was told that it was their only pusaka (heirloom).

ariel · 4th September 2006, 04:35 AM

My understanding is that the word "podang" comes from Portugese "espadao" (pronounced as espadang).

RhysMichael · 4th September 2006, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykeris

Here some more close-up pics of the hilt. This sword actually was acquired from an old Minangkabau family living in Negeri Sembilan, Malaysia. It was told that it was their only pusaka (heirloom).

Thats interesting. Don't the the Minangkabau also have the strange "horned roof" houses similar to the Batak ? I wonder if there is more of a common heritage there than I ever knew about

RhysMichael · 4th September 2006, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

My understanding is that the word "podang" comes from Portugese "espadao" (pronounced as espadang).

That could well be arial, I have not been able to find anything on it but podang (Batak), peudeung ( Aceh) and pedang (Javanese) all mean sword don't they ?

mykeris · 4th September 2006, 05:00 AM

The blade is straight and is 36 inches long in scabbard even longer than the ordinary batak's swords of only 27 inches. Dont you think, the blade was originally taken from any English swords or something else?

Jim McDougall · 5th September 2006, 05:04 AM

Hi Brian,
I think Rhys-Michael and the others have pretty well covered the established data on these swords from N.Sumatran regions and Battak tribes. I see what you're getting at though on the probable origins of the clearly tulwar type hilt. While the typological appearance clearly suggests associations with the tulwar, the cupped pommel rather than disc seems to indicate that there could be a possibility of influence from earlier hilts of the Indian subcontinent.

The complexities of trade around the Subcontinent and the Archipelago may account for the interesting hybrid which we know as the 'piso podang'.The Hindu culture was established in Sumatra from c.7th c. and the Arabs arrived there around the 13th c. The Portuguese had established posts there from the opening of the 16th century and still prevailed in the trade circuits after the Dutch and English dominated the East Indies from the 17th century onward.

It should be recalled that the khanda, well known among the west coast of India, and closely associated the Mahrattas, in turn with Portuguese trade regions, distinctly featured a cupped pommel much as that found on
the piso podang.
It would seem plausible that trade from these regions, might bring the straight bladed khanda swords as well as the curved blade tulwars with arriving Arab trade from Northern India via Malabar Coast. It is known that the piso podang, typically brass , also occurs in iron and although typically with curved hilt, also is found with straight blades.

The blade on this example seems likely a military horsemans blade, and certainly European, thus could have arrived via these trade networks.

Just speculation on my part of course, and I'm sure that the guys who have specialized on these can correct, but seems plausible considering the things I have mentioned.

All the best,
Jim

1st September 2006, 05:53 AM	#1
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Sword ID Indian,English, Arabian? I got this sword from a Malay family in Malaysia. Hopefully to get your professional opinion on what kind of sword is this. Thanks in advance. Attached Images

1st September 2006, 06:03 AM	#2
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	More pictures More pictures. Length in scabbard 36 inches, Length of blade 32 1/2 inches, width of blade 1 1/2 inches. About one quarter on top of blade is sharp (like the Malay Tempius) while the bottom edge is very sharp. Attached Images

1st September 2006, 06:31 AM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Piso Pedang hilt... I'm no professional, but this is what I think. The hilt, looks like a Batak Piso Pedang hilt. Normally the blade is curved. This example have a straight blade. The scabbard is unusual but was made for the blade, Malay-styled. Other more knowledgeable forumite can fill-in...

4th September 2006, 12:23 AM	#13
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Charles Saunders may also be able to add a great deal about these as I recall he has some great examples Well as I said above all I know has mostly been added. This is called a piso podang by stone and von Zonneveld , The curved ones are referred to by Gardner as "pedang shamshir" ( G. B. Gardner in KERIS AND OTHER MALAY WEAPONS). Piso may be a variant of the word pisau , and podang peudeung and pedang certainly have similar roots ( in my mind at least ) . With Piso Podang the hilt is usually cast in one piece where the hilt of many tulwar are cast in two pieces and joined . They are known to have local blades, indian blades, european blades and even rarely wootz blades. These swords (Piso Podang) are most commanly found amongst the Batak in Sumatra. However, there are appearantly some references that do show Iban Dayak carrying Piso Podang. It should be noted that the Batak are non-islamic( Actually Batak is a general name for 6 groups with different cultural and linguistic characteristics, but they believe in a descent of a common ancestor) , and most references to them do not tell of their origin but do talk of the Hindu and Chinese influence. It is believed this sword form came through the Hindu influence as noted above Some links on it http://blade.japet.com/Pedang-Podang.htm http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/pedang_sab/ped08.htm Some other pictures of these http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=960 There are variants of the hilt http://img13.photobucket.com/albums/...d/pisohilt.jpg Last edited by RhysMichael; 4th September 2006 at 01:02 AM.

4th September 2006, 04:26 AM	#15
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	More pics Here some more close-up pics of the hilt. This sword actually was acquired from an old Minangkabau family living in Negeri Sembilan, Malaysia. It was told that it was their only pusaka (heirloom). Attached Images

1st September 2006, 04:39 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I fully agree. Good catch. I certainly would not kick it out of my collection. I have a Piso Podang with old European straight blade: Portugese? Is the blade plated?

1st September 2006, 05:16 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The hilt has 'similar design' elements to the Tulwar.....but less restrictive...no large disc pommel. Is there any connection?

1st September 2006, 07:01 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	nice sword. think this is definately rick's (rswords) territory, as i know he's done some research on these. they take direct influence from the early tulwar form of the 16thC (elgood shows a genuine moghul one in his latest book). the blade looks as if its been cut down (the fullers travel to the end). wonder if the blade was taken from a firangi, as the style is of the same type. i've always loved the shape of these things, maybe because i like early indian pieces. edit - ariel, we crossed posts, and you got in there first with the elgood link

1st September 2006, 07:31 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thankyou both ...Ariel and B.I. ....I thought the hilt was too similar to be coincidence.

1st September 2006, 08:30 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Not unusual at all to have a Euro blade on these.

1st September 2006, 11:35 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Congrats. Nice example and unusual balde. John Crosby (rhysmichael) has a growing collection of these swords and would be another good resource person for further information. Ian

4th September 2006, 12:00 AM	#12
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, i cant believe there isnt more information to be offered. if not on this particular sword, but on this type in general. its not indian, and so i have never spent much time with them, but as a descendant from a very important indian form, i think they are fascinating. jim and rick (stroud) - please step up (sorry, or anyone else?) as i would love to know more. also, i had assumed this to be a brass hilt, as most were. but from the tang button and the detached pommel, it seems to be gilt. is this the case? what material is the hilt made from?

4th September 2006, 01:12 AM	#14
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	thanks RhysMichael, the first link is the most interesting, as it appears to have a pretty early example (although i would love to see a closer image). most i have seen seem to be of a later age. as their influence came from an early indian hilt form, which 'died' out, it must have travelled across in the 16thC. so, there must be early examples out there. are you familiar with any. the ont you show is a great and typical example, but cant see it dating before the 18thC (or maybe later?) the one in elgoods book is definately indian and 16thC, and is a great forerunner of all of these swords, as the form is almost identical.

4th September 2006, 04:35 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My understanding is that the word "podang" comes from Portugese "espadao" (pronounced as espadang).

4th September 2006, 05:00 AM	#19
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	The blade is straight and is 36 inches long in scabbard even longer than the ordinary batak's swords of only 27 inches. Dont you think, the blade was originally taken from any English swords or something else?

5th September 2006, 05:04 AM	#20
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	Hi Brian, I think Rhys-Michael and the others have pretty well covered the established data on these swords from N.Sumatran regions and Battak tribes. I see what you're getting at though on the probable origins of the clearly tulwar type hilt. While the typological appearance clearly suggests associations with the tulwar, the cupped pommel rather than disc seems to indicate that there could be a possibility of influence from earlier hilts of the Indian subcontinent. The complexities of trade around the Subcontinent and the Archipelago may account for the interesting hybrid which we know as the 'piso podang'.The Hindu culture was established in Sumatra from c.7th c. and the Arabs arrived there around the 13th c. The Portuguese had established posts there from the opening of the 16th century and still prevailed in the trade circuits after the Dutch and English dominated the East Indies from the 17th century onward. It should be recalled that the khanda, well known among the west coast of India, and closely associated the Mahrattas, in turn with Portuguese trade regions, distinctly featured a cupped pommel much as that found on the piso podang. It would seem plausible that trade from these regions, might bring the straight bladed khanda swords as well as the curved blade tulwars with arriving Arab trade from Northern India via Malabar Coast. It is known that the piso podang, typically brass , also occurs in iron and although typically with curved hilt, also is found with straight blades. The blade on this example seems likely a military horsemans blade, and certainly European, thus could have arrived via these trade networks. Just speculation on my part of course, and I'm sure that the guys who have specialized on these can correct, but seems plausible considering the things I have mentioned. All the best, Jim