French blades on Saharan Edged Weapons

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2022, 03:11 AM

At present we are discussing the arms of the French Foreign Legion from the origins of the units in 1831 up to about 1900 in Saharan regions, with focus on the rifles and particularly bayonets.
Here I would like to look further into the blades of these French weapons as they ended up in various edged weapons in Saharan contexts. In many cases these may have been bayonets from the Chassepot rifle (needle gun) 1866 (more of a yataghan style blade); the Gras bayonet of 1874 (a straight stiletto type blade) and a fullered blade from the Mannlicher-Berthier M1892.

These kinds of blades would have been used possibly in the Moroccan s'boula or genoui; and possibly in Tuareg arm daggers (telek).

As for sword blades, many French saber or hanger blades seem to have been used in many cases for the Manding saber of Mali, or in Tuareg takouba of curved variety called 'aljuinar' (in Burkina Faso into Mali regions and others).

We have had this subject come up many times over the years, but results always inconclusive as to actual examples of these weapons with French blades identified.

I am hoping that there might be such examples out there, and ultimately would hope to find any example with blade to French Foreign Legion.

The dagger with red cord is a Moroccan genoui with what is believed to be a Mannlicher-Berthier 1892 (as seen to left next)
The next two are the yataghan blade Chassepot or the straight blade Gras
The picture is of Moroccan tribesman with s'boula at hip, these often have straight pointed blades similar to Gras bayonets.

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2022, 05:43 AM

What I am thinking of is examples like this, which is a Moroccan s'boula which has a blade which may be a bayonet, but there are no markings. These blades were as far as known were not locally made. The tribesman standing by a doorway is wearing one of these (Buttin, 1933, #1033).

Edster · 25th August 2022, 03:23 PM

Jim,

I'm thinking why there are apparently so few examples of local swords & daggers from French bayonets any be statistical. Where, how and how many French bayonets became available to be repurposed into Sahelian styles? By the late 1880s-90s German trade blades had already flooded the Central Sahel as exhibited with Mandinka swords and takouba, and even kaskara into Wadai. I suspect that the battles between the French and local forces left few bayonets as battlefield pickups by locals. Also, local swords smiths were more than capable of forging short sword and dagger blades to meet local demands and conform to local styles.

Sorry, I can't add these maps as attachments, only as a link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French...-1880-1913.png

Just a thought,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2022, 03:47 PM

Thank you for coming in Ed! and what you suggest is well placed. The French presence there was not a huge occupation, especially in desert regions in the Sahara. As you note, there were plenty of blades coming in from Germany and there was brisk trade on these caravan networks.

There is no doubt that native smiths could produce blades as required, but as often the case, it is a matter of convenience or simply repurposing which is of course standard in any remote regions such as these deserts.

Actually I am thinking more of these s'boula and genoui type daggers/dirks or whatever category they might fall into. I know I have seen examples with the thin Gras type bayonets, but cannot find them.

With the sabers in Mali, of the Manding, these were of course often with French saber blades as well as German. It is the same with aljuinar takoubas, and the guy I got mine from (it was from Ouangadougou) had seen examples even with British blades by MOLE.

At the far reach of my hopes here are perhaps finding any weapons with blades of Foreign Legion extraction. Thus far I have not even found evidence that these weapons were specifically marked which seems surprising. Many of the Foreign Legion were Swiss, German and Austrian but not sure if they might have had their own weapons in cases, probably not.

fernando · 25th August 2022, 06:22 PM

Evidence of marks on blades was just found out there, although in a late period, yet within the period of the Legion in Alger. A bayonet used by the 2nd Foreign Parachute _(2e Régiment Étranger de Parachutistes, 2e REP). The only airborne regiment of the French Foreign Legion.The regiment was constituted in Algeria in late 1955. There, the 2e REP would actively participate in the Algerian War (1954-62). In 1967, the regiment left Algeria as the last French airborne unit and was stationed on the island of Corsica.
Still leaving doubts if weapons distributed in an earlier period were also marked.

.

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2022, 08:04 PM

Excellent evidence that the convention of marking the Legion's weapons did indeed exist, as per this obviously far later example than the period we are considering. Thank you for continuing the search!!

It does seem that the presumption has typically been that the military would mark their weapons, especially as most arms for rank and file are issued. Therefore in order to establish ownership and regulate issuance and inventory, such numbered markings would be necessary.

However in many conditions it seems there were cases were arms of certain types were not marked. In the case of the East India Company for example, I was told that the swords/hangers to the rank and file were never marked (officers of course had private purchase arms).
However, firearms were invariably marked with the EIC balemark and other markings. This apparently extended to bayonets which also had the EIC balemark as considered part of the firearms scope.

Clearly an analogy, it simply illustrates how circumstances might alter these well established conventions. The EIC was a privately held company, not a standing army of the government.
The Foreign Legion was a volunteer regiment basically although not directly attached to the French army, it was in degree under French government auspices.

Jerseyman · 28th August 2022, 07:55 PM

Not sure if this item fits the topic, but I've always assumed it was a European bayonet re-hilted for local use. I think it's camel bone, or at least the same bone as on a Sudanese Haladie in my collection. Not a great picture unfortunately as it's just an archive photo, so no stats to post. The pommel cap is brass if I remember correctly, and the underside of the blade is flat rather than concave.

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2022, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerseyman

Not sure if this item fits the topic, but I've always assumed it was a European bayonet re-hilted for local use. I think it's camel bone, or at least the same bone as on a Sudanese Haladie in my collection. Not a great picture unfortunately as it's just an archive photo, so no stats to post. The pommel cap is brass if I remember correctly, and the underside of the blade is flat rather than concave.

Thank you so much for responding! This is it appears a bit of a difficult topic,
as most often the blades used on these Saharan weapons from the military sources I am considering are repurposed and altered. The section on this does seem to resemble certain bayonet blades, so plausibly indeed from one of these, actually it seems perhaps even an earlier socket type.

While with the volume of trade blades circulating in the Sahara was as previously noted, considerable, in these kinds of remote circumstances virtually nothing was disregarded as unusable.
As bayonets are not a field I am particularly familiar with, it will take some searching but I feel it is possible of a French type, though the section of the blade sounds British.

25th August 2022, 05:43 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	What I am thinking of is examples like this, which is a Moroccan s'boula which has a blade which may be a bayonet, but there are no markings. These blades were as far as known were not locally made. The tribesman standing by a doorway is wearing one of these (Buttin, 1933, #1033). Attached Images

25th August 2022, 03:23 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Jim, I'm thinking why there are apparently so few examples of local swords & daggers from French bayonets any be statistical. Where, how and how many French bayonets became available to be repurposed into Sahelian styles? By the late 1880s-90s German trade blades had already flooded the Central Sahel as exhibited with Mandinka swords and takouba, and even kaskara into Wadai. I suspect that the battles between the French and local forces left few bayonets as battlefield pickups by locals. Also, local swords smiths were more than capable of forging short sword and dagger blades to meet local demands and conform to local styles. Sorry, I can't add these maps as attachments, only as a link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French...-1880-1913.png Just a thought, Ed Last edited by Edster; 25th August 2022 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Add maps

25th August 2022, 06:22 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Evidence of marks on blades was just found out there, although in a late period, yet within the period of the Legion in Alger. A bayonet used by the 2nd Foreign Parachute _(2e Régiment Étranger de Parachutistes, 2e REP). The only airborne regiment of the French Foreign Legion.The regiment was constituted in Algeria in late 1955. There, the 2e REP would actively participate in the Algerian War (1954-62). In 1967, the regiment left Algeria as the last French airborne unit and was stationed on the island of Corsica. Still leaving doubts if weapons distributed in an earlier period were also marked. . Attached Images

28th August 2022, 07:55 PM	#7
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Not sure if this item fits the topic, but I've always assumed it was a European bayonet re-hilted for local use. I think it's camel bone, or at least the same bone as on a Sudanese Haladie in my collection. Not a great picture unfortunately as it's just an archive photo, so no stats to post. The pommel cap is brass if I remember correctly, and the underside of the blade is flat rather than concave. Attached Images

24th August 2022, 03:11 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	French blades on Saharan Edged Weapons At present we are discussing the arms of the French Foreign Legion from the origins of the units in 1831 up to about 1900 in Saharan regions, with focus on the rifles and particularly bayonets. Here I would like to look further into the blades of these French weapons as they ended up in various edged weapons in Saharan contexts. In many cases these may have been bayonets from the Chassepot rifle (needle gun) 1866 (more of a yataghan style blade); the Gras bayonet of 1874 (a straight stiletto type blade) and a fullered blade from the Mannlicher-Berthier M1892. These kinds of blades would have been used possibly in the Moroccan s'boula or genoui; and possibly in Tuareg arm daggers (telek). As for sword blades, many French saber or hanger blades seem to have been used in many cases for the Manding saber of Mali, or in Tuareg takouba of curved variety called 'aljuinar' (in Burkina Faso into Mali regions and others). We have had this subject come up many times over the years, but results always inconclusive as to actual examples of these weapons with French blades identified. I am hoping that there might be such examples out there, and ultimately would hope to find any example with blade to French Foreign Legion. The dagger with red cord is a Moroccan genoui with what is believed to be a Mannlicher-Berthier 1892 (as seen to left next) The next two are the yataghan blade Chassepot or the straight blade Gras The picture is of Moroccan tribesman with s'boula at hip, these often have straight pointed blades similar to Gras bayonets. Attached Images

25th August 2022, 03:47 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Thank you for coming in Ed! and what you suggest is well placed. The French presence there was not a huge occupation, especially in desert regions in the Sahara. As you note, there were plenty of blades coming in from Germany and there was brisk trade on these caravan networks. There is no doubt that native smiths could produce blades as required, but as often the case, it is a matter of convenience or simply repurposing which is of course standard in any remote regions such as these deserts. Actually I am thinking more of these s'boula and genoui type daggers/dirks or whatever category they might fall into. I know I have seen examples with the thin Gras type bayonets, but cannot find them. With the sabers in Mali, of the Manding, these were of course often with French saber blades as well as German. It is the same with aljuinar takoubas, and the guy I got mine from (it was from Ouangadougou) had seen examples even with British blades by MOLE. At the far reach of my hopes here are perhaps finding any weapons with blades of Foreign Legion extraction. Thus far I have not even found evidence that these weapons were specifically marked which seems surprising. Many of the Foreign Legion were Swiss, German and Austrian but not sure if they might have had their own weapons in cases, probably not.

25th August 2022, 08:04 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Excellent evidence that the convention of marking the Legion's weapons did indeed exist, as per this obviously far later example than the period we are considering. Thank you for continuing the search!! It does seem that the presumption has typically been that the military would mark their weapons, especially as most arms for rank and file are issued. Therefore in order to establish ownership and regulate issuance and inventory, such numbered markings would be necessary. However in many conditions it seems there were cases were arms of certain types were not marked. In the case of the East India Company for example, I was told that the swords/hangers to the rank and file were never marked (officers of course had private purchase arms). However, firearms were invariably marked with the EIC balemark and other markings. This apparently extended to bayonets which also had the EIC balemark as considered part of the firearms scope. Clearly an analogy, it simply illustrates how circumstances might alter these well established conventions. The EIC was a privately held company, not a standing army of the government. The Foreign Legion was a volunteer regiment basically although not directly attached to the French army, it was in degree under French government auspices.