A Venetian Schiavona for comment

CSinTX · 23rd March 2015, 06:13 AM

I was the high bidder on this schiavona with rapier like cross guard and blade. I believe it to be correct and original. Are there other known examples? Age? I cant seem to locate any pictures of anything that resembles it. Any and all thoughts are appreciated.

http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.a...num=13&lang=En

The item description- "A rare transitional Venetian form of swepthilt rapier. The fine brass “cat’s head” pommel elaborately embellished with an angel’s head, with corded wooden grip. The hilt wrought with traditional complex profiled and line-engraved steel branches and integral thumbring, and introducing a long, narrow guard with beaded terminals and long, narrow, double-edged, bifullered blade of flattened diamond section with continuously tapering tip. First half of the 17th century. Guard slightly loose, age toning. Overall length 103.5 cm."

Once I have the item in hand, Ill post better pictures.

Thanks,
Casey

DaveA · 24th March 2015, 08:36 AM

I love the schiavona. It represents a moment in time when things changed. Thanks for sharing this example.

ulfberth · 26th March 2015, 11:51 AM

Hello Casey,

Congratulations with a very rare schiavona, all parts look original to me and belong together.
I think the the description as made by the auction house is spot on, this is indeed a transitional or a variant of the schiavona that is between a sword and a rapier from the first part of the 17th century.
Before that period more countries had swords from which the schiavona could have evolved, some dussage or tessak swords or 16th century German type's of basket hilts could have been predecessors that lead to the schiavona.
The pommel with the cherub head is also very nice and most probably Venetian, you don't' find this kind of pommel very often.
The straight crossguard on this is even more rare and it is indeed a schiavona and no dussage, I have included some pictures of, a Venetian cherub's head, and a similar schiavona with a straight sword blade.

Kind regards
Ulfberth

Robert · 26th March 2015, 09:34 PM

This thread is being closed because the original sword is possibly in the process of being sold and will remain closed until further notice.

Robert

Robert · 8th April 2015, 04:51 AM

It looks as though things have been straightened out so the thread is now open again for discussion.

Best,
Robert

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2015, 12:12 AM

The schiavona is a fascinating sword and this example seems, as Ulfberth notes, quite well described by the auction folks.
It does seem that this simpler guard pattern is 17th century as later the guard was becoming more complex with addition of the trellis work (gitterkorb). I found a similar guard pattern in a drawing in Wagner (1967) but it was in a grouping without detail. Another article in an article which though rudimentary did show another drawing of one with similar bars on guard as Venice, early 17th c. ("In Search of the Schiavona", Karel Sutt, Knives 2000, 1999, pp52-56).
The brass katzenkopf (cats head) pommel is also indicative of earlier date I believe.
What is intriguing is the use of the cherubim head, an element often seen in Baroque art and perhaps with the symbolism reflecting 'justice'. In many cases the cherubs were seen allegorically guarding the gates of Eden, along with the flaming sword. While the sword was protective and vengeful, the cherub represented hope and mercy. The cherub head is seen in this sense on an 18th century German heading sword with scales of justice.

I think the 'transitional' view here is perhaps attuned to the straight rapier type quillons which are quite contrary to other schiavona hilts, in which the quillons are essentially wrapped inward in the S type configuration or in some versions the hilt is assymetrical with one quillon extended.

The use of cherub head on the trilobite pommel along with these straight rapier quillons in my thinking might extend this sword further to mid century 17th, but in such transitional cases the variation could well be regional or otherwise explained.

CSinTX · 12th April 2015, 12:34 AM

Thanks so much for the comments fellas. I finally have it in hand with additional pictures. The cherub head is indeed interesting. At first thought it seems too ornate for what appears to be such an early sword. I've found 4 other examples of schiavona with double quillons and early light weight guards and each one has had a very basic iron pommel. They have also had very basic blades. When you consider that this light weight blade seems to match the pommel and guard, then perhaps this was just a fancier example of early design?

I would like to thank Dirk for his wonderful help. This is my first sword and I couldn't be happier. His willing assistance and extensive knowledge are very much appreciated!

Another interesting aspect is the very slight upward curve in the double edged blade in the last few inches. At first, I thought it to be from extensive sharpening but I believe it was forged that way. In one of the pictures below you can see the fullers converge upwards in the same area.

I would love to hear thoughts from others, good or bad. Matchlock, cornelistromp, or anyone else?

ulfberth · 16th April 2015, 09:40 AM

Hi Casey,

you are welcome !
The schiavona looks even better than in the first pictures !
It has a very nice patina, condition is better than I expected and the shape and design are elegant and of a very rare type !
Concerning your question of the upward curve the last inches of the blade, It difficult to Judge from the pictures but It could indeed be that it is forged that way.
I have a very long rapier in my collection with a spatula type blade, it has a slightly flatter and broader tip in the last 4 inches.

kind regards
Ulfberth

CSinTX · 5th May 2015, 06:42 PM

I wanted to add this example to the record here. Recently sold at Herman Historica auction #70. The guard is very similar but slightly lighter in design. Interestingly, the hole in the pommel that is normally used to secure the base of the guard to the pommel appears to have been filled in. It also seems that the pommel has been rotated 180 degrees at some point. It does appear to match the rest of the sword though.

http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_en/newauction.html

ulfberth · 7th May 2015, 10:30 AM

Hi Dafunky,

this example with the straight cross guard resembles the the style of your schiavona, this variation is rare and hard to find.
The one here is surely an original item, however ... If the pommel would be rotated in the other direction and the hole would be open, the distance between the end of the angle on the guard and the hole in the pommel would be rather long to be attached .
So, I would think that this is indeed an original pommel that has been replaced in its working life, as is often the case.
All thought's on this are welcome, what do you think Jim ?

Best

Ulfberth

Kasey · 7th May 2015, 11:42 AM

Hi Casey,
These picture of schiavona are very nice. Never get xany chance to see closely any schiavona.

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2015, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi Dafunky,

this example with the straight cross guard resembles the the style of your schiavona, this variation is rare and hard to find.
The one here is surely an original item, however ... If the pommel would be rotated in the other direction and the hole would be open, the distance between the end of the angle on the guard and the hole in the pommel would be rather long to be attached .
So, I would think that this is indeed an original pommel that has been replaced in its working life, as is often the case.
All thought's on this are welcome, what do you think Jim ?

Best

Ulfberth

Thank you so much for asking, it is exciting to discuss these distinct and intriguing swords.
Actually, as far as I have known, and in rechecking all notes and examples I have found, the trellis guards seem to remain unattached to the pommel though often directly adjacent. Indeed, this curious and seemingly deliberate aperture seems to appear somewhat consistently on the cats head pommels of these, but typically as noted on the side next to the guard.

This may be another of those curious anomalies like Austrian notched blades which defy explanation yet seem traditionally and faithfully added. As noted it is of course quite possible that refurbishing during working life, the pommel might have been replaced or reset contrary to its original position.

The only instance I have found of the guard being attached to the pommel was on a schiavona 'type' rapier ("A Schiavona Rapier", Claude Blair, JAAS Vol.V, #12, 1967, pp. 453-54).....in this case it is screwed to the side of the pommel (in the style of 17th century English hilts).

Kasey
Welcome to the forum, and indeed it is exciting to see these fascinating examples and learn from them! Please do not hesitate to ask questions and add ideas.....here we all learn together!!!

Best regards,
Jim

ulfberth · 15th May 2015, 07:30 PM

Hi Casey,

This thread of 2012 is very educating and shows a lot of variation of schiavonas, on page two number 126 you can find the type that looks like yours.
After seeing this, one would want to start a collection of schiavonas !

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=2&pp=30

best
Ulfberth

24th March 2015, 08:36 AM	#2
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Simply gorgeous I love the schiavona. It represents a moment in time when things changed. Thanks for sharing this example.

26th March 2015, 11:51 AM	#3
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	Hello Casey, Congratulations with a very rare schiavona, all parts look original to me and belong together. I think the the description as made by the auction house is spot on, this is indeed a transitional or a variant of the schiavona that is between a sword and a rapier from the first part of the 17th century. Before that period more countries had swords from which the schiavona could have evolved, some dussage or tessak swords or 16th century German type's of basket hilts could have been predecessors that lead to the schiavona. The pommel with the cherub head is also very nice and most probably Venetian, you don't' find this kind of pommel very often. The straight crossguard on this is even more rare and it is indeed a schiavona and no dussage, I have included some pictures of, a Venetian cherub's head, and a similar schiavona with a straight sword blade. Kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

5th May 2015, 06:42 PM	#9
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	I wanted to add this example to the record here. Recently sold at Herman Historica auction #70. The guard is very similar but slightly lighter in design. Interestingly, the hole in the pommel that is normally used to secure the base of the guard to the pommel appears to have been filled in. It also seems that the pommel has been rotated 180 degrees at some point. It does appear to match the rest of the sword though. http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_en/newauction.html Attached Images

23rd March 2015, 06:13 AM	#1
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	A Venetian Schiavona for comment I was the high bidder on this schiavona with rapier like cross guard and blade. I believe it to be correct and original. Are there other known examples? Age? I cant seem to locate any pictures of anything that resembles it. Any and all thoughts are appreciated. http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.a...num=13&lang=En The item description- "A rare transitional Venetian form of swepthilt rapier. The fine brass “cat’s head” pommel elaborately embellished with an angel’s head, with corded wooden grip. The hilt wrought with traditional complex profiled and line-engraved steel branches and integral thumbring, and introducing a long, narrow guard with beaded terminals and long, narrow, double-edged, bifullered blade of flattened diamond section with continuously tapering tip. First half of the 17th century. Guard slightly loose, age toning. Overall length 103.5 cm." Once I have the item in hand, Ill post better pictures. Thanks, Casey Attached Images Last edited by dafunky1; 23rd March 2015 at 02:31 PM.

26th March 2015, 09:34 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	This thread is being closed because the original sword is possibly in the process of being sold and will remain closed until further notice. Robert

8th April 2015, 04:51 AM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	It looks as though things have been straightened out so the thread is now open again for discussion. Best, Robert

9th April 2015, 12:12 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	The schiavona is a fascinating sword and this example seems, as Ulfberth notes, quite well described by the auction folks. It does seem that this simpler guard pattern is 17th century as later the guard was becoming more complex with addition of the trellis work (gitterkorb). I found a similar guard pattern in a drawing in Wagner (1967) but it was in a grouping without detail. Another article in an article which though rudimentary did show another drawing of one with similar bars on guard as Venice, early 17th c. ("In Search of the Schiavona", Karel Sutt, Knives 2000, 1999, pp52-56). The brass katzenkopf (cats head) pommel is also indicative of earlier date I believe. What is intriguing is the use of the cherubim head, an element often seen in Baroque art and perhaps with the symbolism reflecting 'justice'. In many cases the cherubs were seen allegorically guarding the gates of Eden, along with the flaming sword. While the sword was protective and vengeful, the cherub represented hope and mercy. The cherub head is seen in this sense on an 18th century German heading sword with scales of justice. I think the 'transitional' view here is perhaps attuned to the straight rapier type quillons which are quite contrary to other schiavona hilts, in which the quillons are essentially wrapped inward in the S type configuration or in some versions the hilt is assymetrical with one quillon extended. The use of cherub head on the trilobite pommel along with these straight rapier quillons in my thinking might extend this sword further to mid century 17th, but in such transitional cases the variation could well be regional or otherwise explained.

12th April 2015, 12:34 AM	#7
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	Thanks so much for the comments fellas. I finally have it in hand with additional pictures. The cherub head is indeed interesting. At first thought it seems too ornate for what appears to be such an early sword. I've found 4 other examples of schiavona with double quillons and early light weight guards and each one has had a very basic iron pommel. They have also had very basic blades. When you consider that this light weight blade seems to match the pommel and guard, then perhaps this was just a fancier example of early design? I would like to thank Dirk for his wonderful help. This is my first sword and I couldn't be happier. His willing assistance and extensive knowledge are very much appreciated! Another interesting aspect is the very slight upward curve in the double edged blade in the last few inches. At first, I thought it to be from extensive sharpening but I believe it was forged that way. In one of the pictures below you can see the fullers converge upwards in the same area. I would love to hear thoughts from others, good or bad. Matchlock, cornelistromp, or anyone else? Attached Images Last edited by dafunky1; 12th April 2015 at 05:20 AM.

16th April 2015, 09:40 AM	#8
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	Hi Casey, you are welcome ! The schiavona looks even better than in the first pictures ! It has a very nice patina, condition is better than I expected and the shape and design are elegant and of a very rare type ! Concerning your question of the upward curve the last inches of the blade, It difficult to Judge from the pictures but It could indeed be that it is forged that way. I have a very long rapier in my collection with a spatula type blade, it has a slightly flatter and broader tip in the last 4 inches. kind regards Ulfberth

7th May 2015, 10:30 AM	#10
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	Hi Dafunky, this example with the straight cross guard resembles the the style of your schiavona, this variation is rare and hard to find. The one here is surely an original item, however ... If the pommel would be rotated in the other direction and the hole would be open, the distance between the end of the angle on the guard and the hole in the pommel would be rather long to be attached . So, I would think that this is indeed an original pommel that has been replaced in its working life, as is often the case. All thought's on this are welcome, what do you think Jim ? Best Ulfberth

7th May 2015, 11:42 AM	#11
Kasey Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1	Hi Casey, These picture of schiavona are very nice. Never get xany chance to see closely any schiavona.

15th May 2015, 07:30 PM	#13
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	Hi Casey, This thread of 2012 is very educating and shows a lot of variation of schiavonas, on page two number 126 you can find the type that looks like yours. After seeing this, one would want to start a collection of schiavonas ! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=2&pp=30 best Ulfberth