Timor slingshot?

Bill M · 5th January 2007, 11:03 AM

I really like the carving that "primitive" people put into their weapons and everyday artifacts. Here is a slingsot / catapult purportedly from the Indonesian island of Timor.

I do not know the age, but it is from an old collection and has wonderful patina.

I like the representations of the male (picture #2) and the female (picture #3) on the sides of the handle. Balance of male and female supporting the piece. Symbolism depicting male and female was very important to the animistic / pagan societies. This went far deeper than mere fertility.

Tantra also means overcoming obstacles.

The fascinating lines on the piece are a common motif in Timor, and also the Dayak and Batak peoples. Look like whorls of energy to me. I wonder what they see?

Early, pre-contact pieces from animistic tribes, whether African, Indian, Indonesian or other cultures, were made for a purpose that was not considered merely art by the people who made them. The symbols were there to make the pieces more effective tools, weapons, communications devices with spirits -- even gods. Not decorations.

It is likely that the carver thought that the intricate carving made this piece a more powerful weapon. He certainly spent a lot of time and effort on it.

8 inches (20.32 cm) Tall

Spunjer · 5th January 2007, 11:59 AM

nice tirador.

Marcokeris · 5th January 2007, 12:36 PM

Very nice!! A piece really with a soul and full of arcaic history.
The double spiral motif (from china dong song empire) is common at all tribal indonesian people.

nKante · 5th January 2007, 08:51 PM

I am only familiar with modern sling shots that use rubber bands to launch the missile. What was used on traditional weapons? Tissue fibers maybe? Or does the wood bend like a bow?

Tim Simmons · 5th January 2007, 09:14 PM

I think these are heddle pulley part of a weavers loom. a sling is a different thing?

Bill M · 6th January 2007, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think these are heddle pulley part of a weavers loom. a sling is a different thing?

Hmm, guess it is possible. I am open to other possibilities, but don't the heddle pulleys have a hole in them? This one has no hole.

nKante · 6th January 2007, 01:04 AM

OK. I have seen other examples of traditional african sling shots, straight dowel, no hole for pulley axle. They were all unstrung. What is the method of projection? Elastic bands or bendable fork?

katana · 6th January 2007, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nKante

Elastic bands or bendable fork?

I can find no early references to the construction of the catapult bands. Bendable forks are unlikely as they are too short to generate sufficent power to propel a stone. Sinew, although slightly elastic, would not 'accellerate' fast enough (after being pulled) to give any momentum to the missile either.
Rubber is almost certainly the only possible material that could be used.
Although primative societies used the sap from 'rubber' producing trees/plants, it was not the rubber we know today. It's properties were badly affected by heat and moisture and although 'stretchy' was weak, so would not have been suitable for catapult 'bands'. This early form of rubber tended to be used to waterproof clothing etc.
In 1839, C.Goodyear dropped (accidentally) a mixture of rubber, white lead and sulphur upon a hot stove. When it was removed, the material was no longer affected by temperature. Despite stretching, it always returned to its original shape. This was known as vulcanisation, this is probably the earliest date that catapult 'bands' were actually possible. And would only be available to 'industrialised' societies.

The catapult 'bands' requires a material which will stretch and when released....will return to its original dimensions ......as QUICKLY as possible. This generates the accelleration required to give a missile the necessary momentum. Modern catapults use silicon rubber, which is superior to the 'classic' rubber previously used. The amount of effort to pull back the sling (and bands) is minimal......but the power generated by the 'release' is far greater.... and can easily propel a ball bearing through a car door......
I know ...because I have one .......and have tested it .... safely.....

Tim Simmons · 6th January 2007, 04:26 PM

I have been puzzled by the amount of these things from Africa on ebay called catapults. Why there are so many of them but not one mention in all the books I have. I have also puzzled over where the knicker elastic came from. They could be other tools than a heddle pulley. Perhaps a roach of some kind? Or winding tool for basket making if not cloth weaving.

katana · 6th January 2007, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I have been puzzled by the amount of these things from Africa on ebay called catapults.

Me too, so many 'Baule' catapults and not one with the bands and pouch fitted. It has puzzled me for some time.
A catapult is a good hunting tool for small game.....and yet these seem to be so well carved/ornate for such 'rudementary' use. Another advantage was that you could use stones etc. as ammunion, freely and easily available. Many primative tribes had crossbows which could easily be modified to fire stones etc at great force and accuracy.

Are these 'catapults' another item that has been judged with 'western' eyes and their true function is totally different

Tim Simmons · 6th January 2007, 07:06 PM

I was always under the impression a "roach" among many other things

was a tool for straightening arrow shafts and the like. Just thought I should mention that.

katana · 6th January 2007, 07:41 PM

Found these small images....they are described as African Loom Bobbins..

katana · 6th January 2007, 08:08 PM

Found this ....
In West African, several cultures, especially the Baule and the Lobi use slingshots. Primarily they are used by young boys to frighten away birds from the crops, such as when the family's millet is ripening. They are also used to hunt small animals such as lizards, frogs, birds and bats. They are also used to occasionally scare off predators as well as for play, (it is common for the boys to hold competitions to see you can hit the farthest milk can. Traditionally gut straps and leather were used, however today used bicycle inner tubes are often employed for the slingshot portion. As the climate in West Africa is quite dry, most times these have rotted away and only the carved wooden handle remains.

Tim Simmons · 6th January 2007, 09:14 PM

Well there we are, a catapult.

nKante · 6th January 2007, 10:01 PM

So that is what a modern sling shot looks like. I have read that sling shots were used in the army of medieval Mali. What were the traditional strappings?
Could it have been fired using a whip motion? Picture a mini lacross stick. Then when elastic bands were discovered the same tool could be converted into a stationary launcher. Just a shot in the dark (pun intended).

katana · 6th January 2007, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Well there we are, a catapult.

Yes, but I am not convinced that 'gut' straps would be a useful material for a catapult. Yes, gut is strong.....with a small amount of elasticity....more suited to bow strings (both archery and violin) than a catapult.
The pictures and quote are from a dealer in African art.....which also stated the price structure for these catapults was dependent on carving and age. By mentioning the 'traditional gut straps' seems to me to mean that some of their stock could be centuries old........with an increase in price.

I am not so certain that gut was used, if it was they would be fairly useless as a weapon and you would be better off throwing stones at the 'birds'. I think that ALL the catapults are relatively modern...late 19c onward.....purely and simply due to the fact that rubber would provide the necessary 'propellent'. If anyone has any ideas or if I am wrong please let me know.

Gut, leather thonging, hemp etc have all been used to make 'slings' for millenia but this is a totally different animal to the catapult/slingshot. And perhaps this has caused the 'confusion' with the dealer

Pangeran Datu · 6th January 2007, 10:46 PM

G'day All,

I've become a bit confused by this thread.
I have always believed that SLINGSHOTS and CATAPAULTS were two different types of implements, the former requiring only a sling and the latter requiring some form of device for instant propulsion.

In my experience, hand-held catapaults in the Malay Archipelago (until the late '50s , anyway) were basically of two types:
- Y-prong: fashioned from a naturally-occuring branch of a tree, or one fashioned from a block of wood. The 'elastics' of the sling were fixed to the verticals.
- A block of wood carved into a handle with extra length above the grip of the same dimensions as the grip. On this extra length was 'gouged'/carved a small prong to fix the 'elastics' of the sling.

Generally, the more skillful one was, the smaller the Y-prong, the second type having the smallest prong of all. The 'elastic' was usually an inner tyre tube, cut to suit. I have never seen an adult use one of these implements, since there were countless alternatives for them.

There were basically two methods of launching the projectile:
- aiming at the target in a straight-line motion. ( This method has caused many accidents for the unwary, the projectile hitting the thumb or ricocheting off the 'Y' to hit other parts of the body)
- aiming at the target in a 'parabolic' motion.

BTW, in the UK in the '50s, metal-frame catapaults were available (the 'Y' looking more like a horseshoe with a handle), usually from a sports stores.

I would be most grateful for any elucidation/enlightenment.

Cheers.

katana · 6th January 2007, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nKante

I have read that sling shots were used in the army of medieval Mali.

Hi nKante, they would have used the sling (as above) , even Alexanda the Great had professional sling-ers in his army. Very accurate and deadly in skilled hands. The catapult/ slingshot could fire the same projectiles but not at such velocity but was accurate in less skilled hands.

Bill M · 7th January 2007, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi nKante, they would have used the sling (as above) , even Alexanda the Great had professional sling-ers in his army. Very accurate and deadly in skilled hands. The catapult/ slingshot could fire the same projectiles but not at such velocity but was accurate in less skilled hands.

David used a sling when he took down Goliath.

nKante · 7th January 2007, 06:52 AM

OK. I am familiar with the simple 'sling', but I guess I have always associated the word 'sling-shot' with the 'catapault'. Seems simple now.

katana · 7th January 2007, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

G'day All,

I've become a bit confused by this thread.
I have always believed that SLINGSHOTS and CATAPAULTS were two different types of implements, the former requiring only a sling and the latter requiring some form of device for instant propulsion.

As far as I know, it seems that the 'catapult' is called a 'sling shot' in the America's. When searching on the web I found 'sling shot' would direct you to mainly American sites with information about 'catapults'. When putting 'catapult' in the search you tend to be directed to info about 'siege weapons', the larger 'rock hurling' variety......
And , I too, thought the basic 'sling' was called a 'sling shot' .....

Below is a pic. of my catapult (sling shot for our American friends

), with stabilizer weights, sight and arm rest...

Bill M · 7th January 2007, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

As far as I know, it seems that the 'catapult' is called a 'sling shot' in the America's. When searching on the web I found 'sling shot' would direct you to mainly American sites with information about 'catapults'. When putting 'catapult' in the search you tend to be directed to info about 'siege weapons', the larger 'rock hurling' variety......
And , I too, thought the basic 'sling' was called a 'sling shot' .....

Below is a pic. of my catapult (sling shot for our American friends

), with stabilizer weights, sight and arm rest...

What, no night vision zoom scope?

Looks like it has everything else!

I am still curious about mine. The Seller called it a "catapult." I do not see how it would work unless it had some sort of rubber. It could be old, because rubber inner tubes were invented sometime around 1910. But my piece has little to no wear on the arms, indicating it was not used.

The carving is good, better than tourist. I wonder if it could be something else? Maybe some kind of altar figure? For one thing it has a very good base and stands up well. None of the other slingshots / catapults I have seen will stand up.

The "Y" shape is common in many religions from the Naga in India to the Dayak, to PNG. Though most of these "Y's" are naturaly occuring tree shapes, some have been carved (like mne) to protray that shape.

Though my piece is purported (who ever really knows?) to have come from an old collection, the collector died without cataloging this piece, so the guy who was liquidating the estate made up his own description.

Tim Simmons · 7th January 2007, 08:31 PM

Yes good point about the "Y" shape house posts and other artifacts. The heads are not looking at the target or the user if it is a sling shot. The neck parts do look like something went there.

katana · 7th January 2007, 10:15 PM

Hi Bill, many of the carved Baule catapults I have seen seem to no wear marks around the forked sections, suggesting that they were never equiped with 'bands' .....further suggesting that these seem to be made for the tourists as decorative items.

Your SEA example , IMHO is not a functional catapult......the 'handle' looks too bulky to comfortably hold and (as you have mentioned) has a 'base plate' which seems to indicate that it should be stood. The 'heads' on each the end of the 'fork' do not seem to be a good design to tie/fix any form of 'banding'. I wondered whether it could be a weaving tool, as Tim has also mentioned, but can only find examples of 'heddle' (which has already been discounted as it has no holes which would be where a spool would be fixed.)

I am beginning to think that you are right, that this carving, with all its symbolism and iconography is something more spiritual.
Would it be unreasonable to suggest that something might have been held in the 'V'. If you had two ....... a spear, blowpipe or sword would look great 'nestled' in the stands......perhaps the carved heads looking away were to keep evil spirits away from your weapon.......

Perhaps if the iconography could be 'translated' ....it's use or function may become more clear. Either way it's a very nice piece.

5th January 2007, 11:03 AM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Timor slingshot? I really like the carving that "primitive" people put into their weapons and everyday artifacts. Here is a slingsot / catapult purportedly from the Indonesian island of Timor. I do not know the age, but it is from an old collection and has wonderful patina. I like the representations of the male (picture #2) and the female (picture #3) on the sides of the handle. Balance of male and female supporting the piece. Symbolism depicting male and female was very important to the animistic / pagan societies. This went far deeper than mere fertility. Tantra also means overcoming obstacles. The fascinating lines on the piece are a common motif in Timor, and also the Dayak and Batak peoples. Look like whorls of energy to me. I wonder what they see? Early, pre-contact pieces from animistic tribes, whether African, Indian, Indonesian or other cultures, were made for a purpose that was not considered merely art by the people who made them. The symbols were there to make the pieces more effective tools, weapons, communications devices with spirits -- even gods. Not decorations. It is likely that the carver thought that the intricate carving made this piece a more powerful weapon. He certainly spent a lot of time and effort on it. 8 inches (20.32 cm) Tall Attached Images

6th January 2007, 07:41 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Found these small images....they are described as African Loom Bobbins.. Attached Images

6th January 2007, 08:08 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Found this .... In West African, several cultures, especially the Baule and the Lobi use slingshots. Primarily they are used by young boys to frighten away birds from the crops, such as when the family's millet is ripening. They are also used to hunt small animals such as lizards, frogs, birds and bats. They are also used to occasionally scare off predators as well as for play, (it is common for the boys to hold competitions to see you can hit the farthest milk can. Traditionally gut straps and leather were used, however today used bicycle inner tubes are often employed for the slingshot portion. As the climate in West Africa is quite dry, most times these have rotted away and only the carved wooden handle remains. Attached Images

5th January 2007, 11:59 AM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	nice tirador.

5th January 2007, 12:36 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Very nice!! A piece really with a soul and full of arcaic history. The double spiral motif (from china dong song empire) is common at all tribal indonesian people.

5th January 2007, 08:51 PM	#4
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	I am only familiar with modern sling shots that use rubber bands to launch the missile. What was used on traditional weapons? Tissue fibers maybe? Or does the wood bend like a bow?

5th January 2007, 09:14 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I think these are heddle pulley part of a weavers loom. a sling is a different thing?

6th January 2007, 01:04 AM	#7
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	OK. I have seen other examples of traditional african sling shots, straight dowel, no hole for pulley axle. They were all unstrung. What is the method of projection? Elastic bands or bendable fork?

6th January 2007, 04:26 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I have been puzzled by the amount of these things from Africa on ebay called catapults. Why there are so many of them but not one mention in all the books I have. I have also puzzled over where the knicker elastic came from. They could be other tools than a heddle pulley. Perhaps a roach of some kind? Or winding tool for basket making if not cloth weaving.

6th January 2007, 07:06 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I was always under the impression a "roach" among many other things was a tool for straightening arrow shafts and the like. Just thought I should mention that.

6th January 2007, 09:14 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Well there we are, a catapult.

6th January 2007, 10:01 PM	#15
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	So that is what a modern sling shot looks like. I have read that sling shots were used in the army of medieval Mali. What were the traditional strappings? Could it have been fired using a whip motion? Picture a mini lacross stick. Then when elastic bands were discovered the same tool could be converted into a stationary launcher. Just a shot in the dark (pun intended).

6th January 2007, 10:46 PM	#17
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	G'day All, I've become a bit confused by this thread. I have always believed that SLINGSHOTS and CATAPAULTS were two different types of implements, the former requiring only a sling and the latter requiring some form of device for instant propulsion. In my experience, hand-held catapaults in the Malay Archipelago (until the late '50s , anyway) were basically of two types: - Y-prong: fashioned from a naturally-occuring branch of a tree, or one fashioned from a block of wood. The 'elastics' of the sling were fixed to the verticals. - A block of wood carved into a handle with extra length above the grip of the same dimensions as the grip. On this extra length was 'gouged'/carved a small prong to fix the 'elastics' of the sling. Generally, the more skillful one was, the smaller the Y-prong, the second type having the smallest prong of all. The 'elastic' was usually an inner tyre tube, cut to suit. I have never seen an adult use one of these implements, since there were countless alternatives for them. There were basically two methods of launching the projectile: - aiming at the target in a straight-line motion. ( This method has caused many accidents for the unwary, the projectile hitting the thumb or ricocheting off the 'Y' to hit other parts of the body) - aiming at the target in a 'parabolic' motion. BTW, in the UK in the '50s, metal-frame catapaults were available (the 'Y' looking more like a horseshoe with a handle), usually from a sports stores. I would be most grateful for any elucidation/enlightenment. Cheers.

7th January 2007, 06:52 AM	#20
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	OK. I am familiar with the simple 'sling', but I guess I have always associated the word 'sling-shot' with the 'catapault'. Seems simple now.

7th January 2007, 08:31 PM	#23
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Yes good point about the "Y" shape house posts and other artifacts. The heads are not looking at the target or the user if it is a sling shot. The neck parts do look like something went there.

7th January 2007, 10:15 PM	#24
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Bill, many of the carved Baule catapults I have seen seem to no wear marks around the forked sections, suggesting that they were never equiped with 'bands' .....further suggesting that these seem to be made for the tourists as decorative items. Your SEA example , IMHO is not a functional catapult......the 'handle' looks too bulky to comfortably hold and (as you have mentioned) has a 'base plate' which seems to indicate that it should be stood. The 'heads' on each the end of the 'fork' do not seem to be a good design to tie/fix any form of 'banding'. I wondered whether it could be a weaving tool, as Tim has also mentioned, but can only find examples of 'heddle' (which has already been discounted as it has no holes which would be where a spool would be fixed.) I am beginning to think that you are right, that this carving, with all its symbolism and iconography is something more spiritual. Would it be unreasonable to suggest that something might have been held in the 'V'. If you had two ....... a spear, blowpipe or sword would look great 'nestled' in the stands......perhaps the carved heads looking away were to keep evil spirits away from your weapon....... Perhaps if the iconography could be 'translated' ....it's use or function may become more clear. Either way it's a very nice piece.