help on a strange sword , translation on arab inscription ...

[BerberDagger]

Hi at all ,

I bought this strange sword ... it have brass pommel and guard and a damascus blade ...

the pommel have an arab ? inscription in the centre and i would ask to collectors is someone known what is ...

thank you BerberDagger

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams BerberDagger... Is this not a Chinese style pommel... ? In which case I would beware the modern copy scenario.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[BerberDagger]

Salaams Ibrahiim al Balooshi ,

I dont think it is chinese ... I think european " in style " but is not arab characters in the centre of pommel ?

thank you
BerberDagger

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by BerberDagger

Salaams Ibrahiim al Balooshi ,

I dont think it is chinese ... I think european " in style " but is not arab characters in the centre of pommel ?

thank you
BerberDagger

Salaams BerberDagger I dont think so... they also look mildly Chinese ..cloud patterns. It is not impossible to have Arabic on a Chinese item ... The Islamic frontiers of China are vast... but in this case I think you have a Chinese sword according to the pommel style (the crossguard baffles me). However, I am no specialist of Chinese weapons nor of the huge complexities in Arabic or Chinese calligraphy so perhaps we can pull someone in who is?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Timo Nieminen]

It isn't Chinese (unless it's a modern-made Chinese-made replica of a European sword). Neither the pommel nor the guard are Chinese in style. Both are Medieval European in style, though the guard is very chunky. My first thought was "Toledo replica", but this sword has a forged blade, so I don't know.

One of the photos shows the end of the pommel, but it's shaded. Is the tang peened there? If not, the pommel is either glued on or screwed on. Perhaps disassembly will provide some answer?

On this style of pommel, the pointy part is an integrated peen block. (Separate peen blocks were common.) But brass tends to be soft and can deform when peening. Which is why I ask if it's peened. (All the original pommels of this type I've seen are iron/steel.)

The blade is forged, but by Medieval standards, poorly finished. So it looks like a modern sword, perhaps deliberately left with a wavy ridge etc. to make it look obviously hand-forged.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

It isn't Chinese (unless it's a modern-made Chinese-made replica of a European sword). Neither the pommel nor the guard are Chinese in style. Both are Medieval European in style, though the guard is very chunky. My first thought was "Toledo replica", but this sword has a forged blade, so I don't know.

One of the photos shows the end of the pommel, but it's shaded. Is the tang peened there? If not, the pommel is either glued on or screwed on. Perhaps disassembly will provide some answer?

On this style of pommel, the pointy part is an integrated peen block. (Separate peen blocks were common.) But brass tends to be soft and can deform when peening. Which is why I ask if it's peened. (All the original pommels of this type I've seen are iron/steel.)

The blade is forged, but by Medieval standards, poorly finished. So it looks like a modern sword, perhaps deliberately left with a wavy ridge etc. to make it look obviously hand-forged.

Salaams Timo Nieminen, I think it is a mixture but based on a new Chinese sword as at the start of your post. I think the top ring on the pommel has snapped off...on which the tassel would have been tied. The crossguard is odd.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

I think this is most likely a modern fantasy sword probably of Chinese origins. If that is the case the feature designs of the blade and fittings are not going to be a fair guide to origins.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Timo Nieminen, I think it is a mixture but based on a new Chinese sword as at the start of your post. I think the top ring on the pommel has snapped off...on which the tassel would have been tied. The crossguard is odd.

I've never seen a Chinese-style sword with a wheel pommel (or wheel pommel + peen block, or wheel pommel + ring). If you're thinking of a specific example, I'd be interested in seeing it.

The shape of the pommel is very European. The decoration on the pommel is not. Here is an example of a modern replica with this shape pommel: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=14705

This particular sword might be inspired by a famous sword. Here is a review of a replica, with original for comparison: http://www.myarmoury.com/review_aa_hen.html

(David, I haven't seen a blade like this on modern replica/fantasy stuff out of China. Unless the lighting exaggerates the waviness and unevenness of the blade.)

[BerberDagger]

Hi at all , thank you for all the comment ... I show it to an expert here , his comment was that sword is 19th century hilt and guard and very well made ( pics dont made justice ...not new 19th century of sure , olso wood and leather heandle is not modern) .. the blade is damascus steel and probably 18th century ..so a composite sword probably in the spanish moorish 15th century style ... its is his opinion ..

[BerberDagger]

can i have a pics or link of the fantasy chinese sword similar ?

[BerberDagger]

here others pics

[RSWORD]

Would it be possible to see a close up picture or two of the Damascus blade? This should at least tell us something about the blade And the type of steel.

[BerberDagger]

here a detail.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, Not being expert in Chinese weapons ... It does however strike me that the blade profile which by the way I can see no evidence of Damascening wootz or any such pattern... is like/similar to modern Chinese martial arts Tai Chi sword blades. It also looks faintly theatrical... I may be wrong ... The Pommel looks like it has Chinese(shapes) around the inner circle and the pommel ring looks missing from the top... where a tassel would normally be tied. The small rings top and base of the hilt look Chinese in style.

It inspires me to look more closely at the broader subject of Chinese Swords.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[BerberDagger]

Hi, I disagree ... the style is spanish XV Century not chinese , the blade is damascus ... maybe a composite sword but chinese is very hard !!!

can i have link of the similar chinese sword you mean please ? I never seen a similar chinese sword...

thank you a lot

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by BerberDagger

Hi, I disagree ... the style is spanish XV Century not chinese , the blade is damascus ... maybe a composite sword but chinese is very hard !!!

can i have link of the similar chinese sword you mean please ? I never seen a similar chinese sword...

thank you a lot

Salaams BerberDagger ~ I assume this is for me to answer?... Yes. Possibly this is a composite... Not beyond the possibility of a theatrical made up job nor perhaps influenced by Toledo Oriental form..but I don't think it is old nor do I think it is genuine. I think it is interesting. The writing on the hilt appears to be not Arabic but more Chinese looking cloud designs. The blade (and it may be your picture) does not appear to be Damascus...The brass cross guard looks recently cast. It may have some similarity to 15th C but in my opinion it is a new reproduction.

As a contributor I only make observations and whereas you may wish to set out to prove a swords provenance ... I don't think I need to process the details proving that it is not.

You asked for comments by posting the thread ... I am simply doing that.

The floor, however,is all yours .. Go ahead and prove the link to 15th C.
(Please see below Joan of Ark.)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by BerberDagger

Hi, I disagree ... the style is spanish XV Century not chinese , the blade is damascus ... maybe a composite sword but chinese is very hard !!!

I do agree with you that this is not really a Chinese style weapon. However the Chinese have been making repro and fantasy swords based on designs from all over the world for some time now. This is why i suggested the Chinese origin. Not because the sword has traditional Chinese elements. I also agree that the cross guard casting looks cheap and contemporary in the photos. I think we are dealing with a contemporary repro here regardless of the country of origin.
Like Ibrahiim i also see no sign that this blade is damascus steel. What do you base this assumption on?

[Iain]

Originally Posted by BerberDagger

Hi, I disagree ... the style is spanish XV Century not chinese , the blade is damascus ... maybe a composite sword but chinese is very hard !!!

can i have link of the similar chinese sword you mean please ? I never seen a similar chinese sword...

thank you a lot

To further add to what David said, I'd be curious what you believe your sword to be?

It is always difficult to convince someone who has a piece in hand if their own opinion is already fixed.

I agree with what the other posters in this thread have said that there is not an Arab description.

This is not, in my opinion, an object of antiquity and could well be a Chinese product as suggested by other posters.

The other possibility is that this is a European reproduction, however would not likely make it particularly old either, at the oldest perhaps a late 19th century decorative item.

[RSWORD]

Thank you for posting a closer picture of the blade however from the picture provided I can see no evidence that this is a Damascus blade. I do see some surface scratches but can't see any evidence of a pattern. Also, there seems to be a couple of spots along the edge where the blade has folded up, presumably when the edge has struck something. The way it is folded up would suggest that this blade is not tempered with a hard edge. It would suggest that the steel is rather soft. A hard edge would chip away, not fold over. Also, the unevenness of the ridge line suggests a poorly made blade. I think at best here you have a 19th century piece made for hanging on the wall.

[BerberDagger]

thanks at all fo opinion ... I would made a precisation:
I known this sword is not period , I ve a large collection of genuine viking and medieval swords olso with museum provenence so i m not a stupid collector ! I dont search people who tell me that this sword is antique!!!

only i would find a catalogue description for it .... i dont see chinese manner in pommel and guard more european victorian but i m open to change idea if all the ideas of collectors suggest chinese offer me images and documentation abaut...

thank you

[Iain]

Originally Posted by BerberDagger

thanks at all fo opinion ... I would made a precisation:
I known this sword is not period , I ve a large collection of genuine viking and medieval swords olso with museum provenence so i m not a stupid collector ! I dont search people who tell me that this sword is antique!!!

I don't anyone had suggested you were somehow a "stupid collector".

only i would find a catalogue description for it .... i dont see chinese manner in pommel and guard more european victorian but i m open to change idea if all the ideas of collectors suggest chinese offer me images and documentation abaut...

thank you

My opinion would be a Victorian period decorative piece.

[Jim McDougall]

I very much agree with most all of the excellent observations that have been posted here. Berber, I believe it has long been established that you are a well seasoned collector with considerable experience so completely unnecessary to assert that in response to the opinions you have solicited.

As has been well pointed out, this example seems clearly to be an 'interpretive' production which does seem to hold composite influences.
It is important to note that medieval swords typically have iron/steel hilts, not brass (and this as already observed, has rather crudely executed casting).
I would concur with the latter 19th, early 20th period suggestions, but feel this more likely to be a theatrical item. With these the brass is not only easier to produce stylized hilts, but they lend well to appearance in accord with the often romanticized glint of early swords in the literature.

I think observations are well placed and the resemblances to Chinese and Spanish swords, though subtle, do reflect the desire to bring in exotic and chivalric elements to carry out the obviously intended appearance.

In my view, most Victorian period pieces intended for decorating parlors and smoking rooms etc. were actually remarkably authentic reproductions, far from these theatrical props. I would note also that while to many, such theatrical items of the 19th century and other periods have gained considerable traction as collectibles, much in the manner of Masonic arms and regalia which now have their own unique place in collecting.

[David]

Originally Posted by BerberDagger

thanks at all fo opinion ... I would made a precisation:
I known this sword is not period , I ve a large collection of genuine viking and medieval swords olso with museum provenence so i m not a stupid collector ! I dont search people who tell me that this sword is antique!!!

only i would find a catalogue description for it .... i dont see chinese manner in pommel and guard more european victorian but i m open to change idea if all the ideas of collectors suggest chinese offer me images and documentation abaut...

thank you

I don't think there is any reason to get defensive and certainly no one is suggesting that you are stupid. We are all insisting that the blade is NOT damascus because NONE of us can see ANY evidence of it in your photographs. This has become a sticking point in this thread because you make the claim for damascus in your opening post and then later support that claim with what you refer to as an "expert" opinion that it is indeed damascus. "the blade is damascus steel and probably 18th century" So again i would ask WHY you believe this is so?
Regarding a "catalogue description", personally i cannot see the point beyond "European style wall hanger". Technically i would suggest that this is not truly an ethnographic weapon. It makes gestures towards historical swords, but is probably not an exact repro of any particular known historical weapon. My thoughts on the possibility that this is a Chinese repro are based upon the motif in the pommel and nothing more. It looks vaguely Asian, though i doubt it is any kind of writing. Though it could well have been incorporated into this pommel by a European maker to give this sword an exotic hint of "orientalism".