Japanese (?) Sword Query

A. G. Maisey · 6th May 2018, 10:22 PM

A mate of mine just bought this, and asked me for an opinion.

My present opinion is current production, China.

But I know nothing about this type of weapon.

I would appreciate the opinion of somebody who knows a lot more than I do, and if possible, a reading of the script on the tang.

Thank you.

Battara · 7th May 2018, 11:53 PM

So far Alan, I agree with you. I don't read Katakana or Hiragana, but if this were WWII, there would still be some patina (though lite) on the tang.

Even though WWII signatures are "choppy" like this, they still look wrong to me.

Also the "file marks" on the same tang don't look right.

Finally, even the later WWII katanas made from homogenous steel had a hamon on the edge (though oil tempered). Usually patina, rust, and scratches would obscure any hamon, I don't see any of these on this super clean blade.

For these reasons, I agree that this is a fake or reproduction so far.

Could you post more pictures of the blade edge itself? Did it come with mounts, and if so, would you post pictures of these as well?

Ian · 8th May 2018, 06:21 AM

Alan,

I hope some of our Japanese sword enthusiasts pass by here soon.

I'm not an expert by any means on Japanese swords, but this one seems wrong to me, for many of the reasons that Jose has noted already. The lack of a visible hamon on this highly polished blade is particularly troubling for me--is there actually a hamon present?

Looks recent manufacture to me too.

Caveat emptor...

Ian.

A. G. Maisey · 8th May 2018, 08:17 AM

Thanks for the comments.

I'll see if I can get pics of the edge.

No, no dress, he bought it as you see it.

Paid less than the price of a halfway decent kitchen knife.

David R · 8th May 2018, 10:33 AM

Not all WW2 blades had a hamon. NCO blades were plain tempered steel, and more than one signing smith made the same for officers Shin-Gunto. It's a very complicated subject. Patina on the nakago can be removed by over-cleaning. I would like to see pictures of the mounts as that can be a clue. I would take this over to one of the specialist pages like Nihonto Message board or warrelics.eu where there is a bigger pool of knowledge.

mariusgmioc · 8th May 2018, 05:15 PM

Sorry Alan for the late reply but I am currently travelling and don't get online too often.

First, even for a prliminary assesment of the blade, much better photos will be needed. They should detail the tang, the tip and the mid-section of the blade. Also some dimmensions would be needed.

Second, the best source of information would be the "Nihonto Message Board" forum.

If your friend doesn't want to join that forum, he can send me the info and I will gladly ask for him... but that will have to wait at least another week.

Regards,

Marius

PS: To me the signature looks rather well executed that is very uncharacteristic for Chinese fakes.

PPS: And it also appears to have some hamon...

David R · 8th May 2018, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for the comments.

I'll see if I can get pics of the edge.

No, no dress, he bought it as you see it.

Paid less than the price of a halfway decent kitchen knife.

Then he has a bargain! Even repro's cost.

Ian · 8th May 2018, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Not all WW2 blades had a hamon. NCO blades were plain tempered steel, and more than one signing smith made the same for officers Shin-Gunto. It's a very complicated subject. ...

Thanks Dave. Indeed, a complicated subject.

Ian.

A. G. Maisey · 8th May 2018, 11:10 PM

Thank you for your responses gentlemen.

It appears that there is no hamon.

My mate has come up with the same list that David has shown us, and has formed the opinion that he has something that is probably the same as #8 on that list.

6th May 2018, 10:22 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	Japanese (?) Sword Query A mate of mine just bought this, and asked me for an opinion. My present opinion is current production, China. But I know nothing about this type of weapon. I would appreciate the opinion of somebody who knows a lot more than I do, and if possible, a reading of the script on the tang. Thank you. Attached Images

8th May 2018, 10:33 AM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Not all WW2 blades had a hamon. NCO blades were plain tempered steel, and more than one signing smith made the same for officers Shin-Gunto. It's a very complicated subject. Patina on the nakago can be removed by over-cleaning. I would like to see pictures of the mounts as that can be a clue. I would take this over to one of the specialist pages like Nihonto Message board or warrelics.eu where there is a bigger pool of knowledge. Attached Images

8th May 2018, 05:15 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Late reply Sorry Alan for the late reply but I am currently travelling and don't get online too often. First, even for a prliminary assesment of the blade, much better photos will be needed. They should detail the tang, the tip and the mid-section of the blade. Also some dimmensions would be needed. Second, the best source of information would be the "Nihonto Message Board" forum. If your friend doesn't want to join that forum, he can send me the info and I will gladly ask for him... but that will have to wait at least another week. Regards, Marius PS: To me the signature looks rather well executed that is very uncharacteristic for Chinese fakes. PPS: And it also appears to have some hamon... Last edited by mariusgmioc; 8th May 2018 at 06:11 PM.

7th May 2018, 11:53 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	So far Alan, I agree with you. I don't read Katakana or Hiragana, but if this were WWII, there would still be some patina (though lite) on the tang. Even though WWII signatures are "choppy" like this, they still look wrong to me. Also the "file marks" on the same tang don't look right. Finally, even the later WWII katanas made from homogenous steel had a hamon on the edge (though oil tempered). Usually patina, rust, and scratches would obscure any hamon, I don't see any of these on this super clean blade. For these reasons, I agree that this is a fake or reproduction so far. Could you post more pictures of the blade edge itself? Did it come with mounts, and if so, would you post pictures of these as well?

8th May 2018, 06:21 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Alan, I hope some of our Japanese sword enthusiasts pass by here soon. I'm not an expert by any means on Japanese swords, but this one seems wrong to me, for many of the reasons that Jose has noted already. The lack of a visible hamon on this highly polished blade is particularly troubling for me--is there actually a hamon present? Looks recent manufacture to me too. Caveat emptor... Ian.

8th May 2018, 08:17 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	Thanks for the comments. I'll see if I can get pics of the edge. No, no dress, he bought it as you see it. Paid less than the price of a halfway decent kitchen knife.

8th May 2018, 11:10 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	Thank you for your responses gentlemen. It appears that there is no hamon. My mate has come up with the same list that David has shown us, and has formed the opinion that he has something that is probably the same as #8 on that list.