new pistol

Kubur · 18th December 2016, 04:07 PM

Hi Guys
Here is the animal.
Most probably North Africa, Morrocan or Algerian coasts
Best
Kubur

rickystl · 18th December 2016, 06:02 PM

Hi Kubur.

This one, may possibly be my favorite from all your pistol posts here. Yes, I agree with the Moroccan or Algerian coasts. I'm leaning a bit more towards Algerian. Notice the miquelet lock styled in early Spanish style. Congratulations. A most impressive pistol that appears in super condition. Please post additional pics as time permits. Including the lock and pan area. Thanks.

Rick

BANDOOK · 19th December 2016, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Guys
Here is the animal.
Most probably North Africa, Morrocan or Algerian coasts
Best
Kubur

HI KUBUR,WOW WOW WOW
AGREE WITH RICK ,MY BET IS ALGERIA,VERY CLASSY AND IN GREAT CONDITION
A PIECE OF ART
I WORKED A 13 HOUR SHIFT,BUT WHEN I SEE THIS BEAUTY I FELT REJEVUNATED,MERCY BEACOUP FOR POSTING
REGARDS RAJESH

Kubur · 19th December 2016, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur.
This one, may possibly be my favorite from all your pistol posts here.
Rick

Hi Rick,
You say that everytime

I will do more photos.
Best,
Kubur

Kubur · 19th December 2016, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

HI KUBUR,WOW WOW WOW
AGREE WITH RICK ,MY BET IS ALGERIA,VERY CLASSY AND IN GREAT CONDITION
A PIECE OF ART
I WORKED A 13 HOUR SHIFT,BUT WHEN I SEE THIS BEAUTY I FELT REJEVUNATED,MERCY BEACOUP FOR POSTING
REGARDS RAJESH

Thank you Rajesh
I agree for the coral but the silver and metal work are very Moroccan.
Best wishes,
Kubur

rickystl · 20th December 2016, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Rick,
You say that everytime

I will do more photos.
Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur.

LOL. Yes, sometimes I tend to get carried away a bit. LOL

Looking forward to the additional photos. Really nice piece.

Rick

Kubur · 4th January 2017, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur.

LOL. Yes, sometimes I tend to get carried away a bit. LOL

Looking forward to the additional photos. Really nice piece.

Rick

As requested
Best wishes
Kubur

Fernando K · 4th January 2017, 08:18 PM

Hello
Several things call my attention. First, the knob and the piece that holds the barrel in its front, appear to be fused, instead of being chiseled. Second in the lock.La bowl is barely insinuated, the scratch of the frizeen is just muffled and the strangest, the shot block is round, not a flat blade.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Fernando K · 5th January 2017, 11:30 AM

Hello
I want to say that this is a piece for tourists, although the decor work is magnificent.
Affectionately. Fernando K

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th January 2017, 12:41 PM

There is a pair of Algerian Pistols in The Queen Elizabeth 11 collection with coral and silver decoration for comparison and interest...as below...

Described as Quote" Flintlock pistol; octagonal/round steel barrel, chased with foliate scrolls, with two chased bands; wooden stock applied throughout with tear-shaped pieces of coral with engraved silver surrounds; silver mounts chased with foliate scrolls, pommel with bands of leaves, fluting, ropework.

Provenance;

Part of a set of guns and pistols given by the Dey of Algiers". Unquote.

rickystl · 7th January 2017, 04:34 PM

Hi Kubur.

WOW!! What a couple more close-up photos will produce.

Unfortunatly, I must agree with Fernando K. This appears to be a Tourist piece. You will probably find that both the lock and barrel are castings versus forgings. If you took the barrel off you will probably find there is no seperate breech plug. It is the most nicely decorated Tourist piece I have ever seen.

That said, I still wish I owned this piece. That it is a Tourist piece would be all the excuse I need to convert it into a shooting gun with a new barrel and utilizing one of my spare miquelet locks out of my collection. LOL

I really like the stock decoration on this one.

Rick

rickystl · 7th January 2017, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

There is a pair of Algerian Pistols in The Queen Elizabeth 11 collection with coral and silver decoration for comparison and interest...as below...

Described as Quote" Flintlock pistol; octagonal/round steel barrel, chased with foliate scrolls, with two chased bands; wooden stock applied throughout with tear-shaped pieces of coral with engraved silver surrounds; silver mounts chased with foliate scrolls, pommel with bands of leaves, fluting, ropework.

Provenance;

Part of a set of guns and pistols given by the Dey of Algiers". Unquote.

Hi Ibrahiim.

What a beautiful pair of pistols. Note the front of the ramrods being partially wraped in thin sheet silver (and sometimes brass). A trademark of Algerian built guns. You also see this done with the ramrods of the long guns.

Rick

Kubur · 10th January 2017, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello
Several things call my attention. First, the knob and the piece that holds the barrel in its front, appear to be fused, instead of being chiseled. Second in the lock.La bowl is barely insinuated, the scratch of the frizeen is just muffled and the strangest, the shot block is round, not a flat blade.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Dear Fernando,
You are right. I looked at the barrel nicely engraved with copper wire.
Unfortunately the thickness of the barrel is not the same at the muzzle and the light is not even drilled throught the barrel. For the lock it's true that the frizzen looks cast. Nevertheless it's a very good lock nothing compare to what you call tourist pistols.
Please look at my thread called
Fake pistols with real locks, real pistols with fake locks
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...oroccan+pistol
Look also at
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20541
The first and the last Moroccan muskets belong to the same category,
old guns made in the late 19th and very early 20th (before 1918).
To be simplier and more clear we have at least two categories of guns here.
The very early tourist pistols if you like, but i prefer to say decorative as their quality is comparable to old ones (around 1880 to 1920) and the tourist guns from 1930 to our days.
I noticed two workshops where they produced this early type of guns, one in Morocco and one in Istanbul. I will post Turkish examples one day. One feature of these workshops is the use of old spare parts. Sometimes it's difficult to distinguish the recent from the old even for specialists...
Best,
Kubur

Kubur · 10th January 2017, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur.

WOW!! What a couple more close-up photos will produce.
It is the most nicely decorated Tourist piece I have ever seen.
That said, I still wish I owned this piece. That it is a Tourist piece would be all the excuse I need to convert it into a shooting gun with a new barrel and utilizing one of my spare miquelet locks out of my collection. LOL

I really like the stock decoration on this one.

Rick

Hi Rick,
I sent to Fernando detailled explanations and he is right of course.
That is said but what is very disturbing is the fact that this pistol is even better in 'real' than on photographs. The decoration, the weight balance, the size, it's a nice piece so it would be difficult for me to leave it.
Please, look at this Algerian Moukala made in 1918 (the date in Gregoran calendar is engraved on the stock)...not mine unfortunately...

Best,
Kubur

rickystl · 13th January 2017, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Rick,
I sent to Fernando detailled explanations and he is right of course.
That is said but what is very disturbing is the fact that this pistol is even better in 'real' than on photographs. The decoration, the weight balance, the size, it's a nice piece so it would be difficult for me to leave it.
Please, look at this Algerian Moukala made in 1918 (the date in Gregoran calendar is engraved on the stock)...not mine unfortunately...

Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur.

Well, I had to try.

LOL

That Moukala is dated very late. The lock and barrel may be older and re-used to build this one. The barrel seems a bit shorter than most, but could be original.

Rick.

BANDOOK · 14th January 2017, 12:00 PM

HI KUBUR
THIS BELONGS TO A FRIEND WHO LIVES IN FRANCE,WAS FOR SALE SOMETIME BACK
MOROCCON OR ALGERIAN,LOVELY PISTOL
REGARDS RAJESH

Fernando K · 14th January 2017, 03:26 PM

Hi

I do not know why Argentina is said. I live in Argentina, and I assure you that in my country there was no factory or artisan capable of producing this pistol.

It is a European pistol, perhaps Belgian, to which the wooden hilt was changed or used to decorate the Marquis estillo.

I think it's a tourist piece.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Fernando K · 14th January 2017, 06:12 PM

Hi

Now I notice that the lid is held, not by a screw, but by a nail, in the upper part. I can not see what happens at the bottom, but I feel the same

Affectionately. Fernando K

Kubur · 15th January 2017, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

HI KUBUR
THIS BELONGS TO A FRIEND WHO LIVES IN FRANCE,WAS FOR SALE SOMETIME BACK
MOROCCON OR ALGERIAN,LOVELY PISTOL
REGARDS RAJESH

Hi Rajesh,
Yes you are right, it's the same style and probably the same workshop.
A very nice little pocket pistol.
Best wishes
Kubur

BANDOOK · 15th January 2017, 07:02 AM

TNX FOR YOUR REPLY KUBUR,CHEERS MERCIE

corrado26 · 15th January 2017, 10:26 AM

The origin of this double barrel pistol is a mass made German so called "Weinbergpistole" used in the vinyards to disturb birds. These pistols have been in production up to the 1930s and in German warehouse catalogues they had a price of 1.-Reichsmark. There have been pistols with round or edged barrels but always of very primitiv or simple make.
corrado26

Oliver Pinchot · 15th January 2017, 06:03 PM

While it is never pleasant to learn that a treasured piece is a copy, one as good as Kubur's is worthy of some analysis:

The buttcap and barrel band appear to be cast. I am aware of very few types of period Moroccan work which include this technique.

The wood is very smooth and appears to lack patina.

The engraving on the lock and barrel tang applique` are quite crisp and show no wear. The wire inlay combined with coral and turquoise inlay likewise show little wear.

The work on the barrel does not appear to be inlay; rather, it is copper or brass which has been melted into the engraved lines and polished flat to the surface. This technique is very common these days.

Most interestingly, however, is the fact that the copyist found a good, complete example on which to base his work, probably in a museum or perhaps even in a book. He has not varied much at all from the original form, and the quality of workmanship is quite good overall.

Modern work is most easily identified by the absence of original form; it displays varying degrees of "artistic invention," most of which is comically poor. Regretably, the trend spans the entire range of arms and armor.

Kubur · 17th September 2017, 06:29 PM

Guys
Confirmed as an early 20th c. Moroccan decorative pistol
but functionnal... in the style of the 18th - 19th c.
I found at least two other models very similar...

18th December 2016, 04:07 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	new pistol Hi Guys Here is the animal. Most probably North Africa, Morrocan or Algerian coasts Best Kubur Attached Images

6th January 2017, 12:41 PM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	There is a pair of Algerian Pistols in The Queen Elizabeth 11 collection with coral and silver decoration for comparison and interest...as below... Described as Quote" Flintlock pistol; octagonal/round steel barrel, chased with foliate scrolls, with two chased bands; wooden stock applied throughout with tear-shaped pieces of coral with engraved silver surrounds; silver mounts chased with foliate scrolls, pommel with bands of leaves, fluting, ropework. Provenance; Part of a set of guns and pistols given by the Dey of Algiers". Unquote. Attached Images

14th January 2017, 12:00 PM	#16
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	A COUSIN OF YOUR PISTOL HI KUBUR THIS BELONGS TO A FRIEND WHO LIVES IN FRANCE,WAS FOR SALE SOMETIME BACK MOROCCON OR ALGERIAN,LOVELY PISTOL REGARDS RAJESH Attached Images

15th January 2017, 10:26 AM	#21
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	The origin of this double barrel pistol is a mass made German so called "Weinbergpistole" used in the vinyards to disturb birds. These pistols have been in production up to the 1930s and in German warehouse catalogues they had a price of 1.-Reichsmark. There have been pistols with round or edged barrels but always of very primitiv or simple make. corrado26 Attached Images

17th September 2017, 06:29 PM	#23
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Guys Confirmed as an early 20th c. Moroccan decorative pistol but functionnal... in the style of the 18th - 19th c. I found at least two other models very similar... Attached Images

18th December 2016, 06:02 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Kubur. This one, may possibly be my favorite from all your pistol posts here. Yes, I agree with the Moroccan or Algerian coasts. I'm leaning a bit more towards Algerian. Notice the miquelet lock styled in early Spanish style. Congratulations. A most impressive pistol that appears in super condition. Please post additional pics as time permits. Including the lock and pan area. Thanks. Rick

4th January 2017, 08:18 PM	#8
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello Several things call my attention. First, the knob and the piece that holds the barrel in its front, appear to be fused, instead of being chiseled. Second in the lock.La bowl is barely insinuated, the scratch of the frizeen is just muffled and the strangest, the shot block is round, not a flat blade. Affectionately. Fernando K

5th January 2017, 11:30 AM	#9
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello I want to say that this is a piece for tourists, although the decor work is magnificent. Affectionately. Fernando K

7th January 2017, 04:34 PM	#11
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Kubur. WOW!! What a couple more close-up photos will produce. Unfortunatly, I must agree with Fernando K. This appears to be a Tourist piece. You will probably find that both the lock and barrel are castings versus forgings. If you took the barrel off you will probably find there is no seperate breech plug. It is the most nicely decorated Tourist piece I have ever seen. That said, I still wish I owned this piece. That it is a Tourist piece would be all the excuse I need to convert it into a shooting gun with a new barrel and utilizing one of my spare miquelet locks out of my collection. LOL I really like the stock decoration on this one. Rick

14th January 2017, 03:26 PM	#17
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hi I do not know why Argentina is said. I live in Argentina, and I assure you that in my country there was no factory or artisan capable of producing this pistol. It is a European pistol, perhaps Belgian, to which the wooden hilt was changed or used to decorate the Marquis estillo. I think it's a tourist piece. Affectionately. Fernando K

14th January 2017, 06:12 PM	#18
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hi Now I notice that the lid is held, not by a screw, but by a nail, in the upper part. I can not see what happens at the bottom, but I feel the same Affectionately. Fernando K

15th January 2017, 07:02 AM	#20
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	TNX FOR YOUR REPLY KUBUR,CHEERS MERCIE

15th January 2017, 06:03 PM	#22
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	While it is never pleasant to learn that a treasured piece is a copy, one as good as Kubur's is worthy of some analysis: The buttcap and barrel band appear to be cast. I am aware of very few types of period Moroccan work which include this technique. The wood is very smooth and appears to lack patina. The engraving on the lock and barrel tang applique` are quite crisp and show no wear. The wire inlay combined with coral and turquoise inlay likewise show little wear. The work on the barrel does not appear to be inlay; rather, it is copper or brass which has been melted into the engraved lines and polished flat to the surface. This technique is very common these days. Most interestingly, however, is the fact that the copyist found a good, complete example on which to base his work, probably in a museum or perhaps even in a book. He has not varied much at all from the original form, and the quality of workmanship is quite good overall. Modern work is most easily identified by the absence of original form; it displays varying degrees of "artistic invention," most of which is comically poor. Regretably, the trend spans the entire range of arms and armor.