1730 Rapier or a Victorian 'Copy' .........any ideas?

[katana]

Not an Ethnographic weapon.....but I know there are those on the Forum with exceptional knowledge of early European blades.

I have taken a chance on this....it is 44'' long overall, cup hilt with s- shaped cross guard. Inscribed 'anno 1730' (obviously could have been engraved recently)...certainly has age....the 'acorn' shaped pommel seems to have the tang 'peened' over.....not the usual 'screwed on' type typical of 'Victoriana' wall hangers.

The sword weighs nearly 2 kgs , approx. 4.4 lbs, no scabbard.........The handle is leather covered wood.

So Gentlemen......please tell me....what have I got?

[Tim Simmons]

Hi David.

What is the pad in the cup made of? I am not sure about the engraving the style is quite modern looking to my eye. It is certainly a very heavy version of an epee like weapon. The picture are not that good. Could you take better pics?

[katana]

Hi Tim, not in possession of the sword ...yet. It'll be on its way soon.
I believe the pad is leather....but not certain. I agree the lettering seems suspect...but I have seen, on the net, examples of engraved lettering from around that period (early 18c) and it could be authentic .....but then again a good forger would ensure it was similar....

I also agree about the weight......seems business like, have you any further thoughts on it?

[Marc]

With the usual disclaimer about how cautious one has to be doing evaluations through photographs...
I would say it's a "Victorian Copy", meaning it's a piece made for decoration, probably quite some time ago, but not that much as 1730. It's an attempt to a cup-hilt rapier, but it's only intended to look kind of well in a wall. Not even the blade seems original, also, but I would need better pics to really say that. Just some hints, as I don't like to just drop statements without some reasoning behind: the quillions are wrong, in shape and section, the construction of the hilt is wrong, the different elements don't harmonize together, and the blade, as I said, for what little I've seen is wrong, too. And, if the weight is correct, then it's too heavy, also. I apologize for not being more precise, but I'm a bit shorto fo time, right now.

I'm sorry.

[spiral]

Nearly 4 1/2 pounds in weight!

So No chance its a real fighting rapier, so then i would say it must be a wallhanger.

Spiral

[Ian]

The date inscription is definitely later than 1730. If applied at the time of the manufacture of the blade, this one is a fake.

Ian.

[katana]

I appreciate all your valued comments, especially Marc , for the extra information....my gut reaction was Victorian ...its the pommel with peening which made me take the risk. The weight given is approx. for shipping purposes so it is less than that....but by how much ..I can't say.....what is a reasonable weight ...if this was a genuine sword?

I suppose my only hope is that this 'sword' could be several 'cobbled' together ....all those years ago......and hopefully not to create a 'wallhanger'.......Ah hope springs eternal ...... will have to wait and see.

I also suspect that it has some monetary value as a 'Victorian curio', if anyone has any idea of it's worth (as a curio) please PM me thankyou.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by katana

The sword weighs nearly 2 kgs , approx. 4.4 lbs, no scabbard.........The handle is leather covered wood.

&

The weight given is approx. for shipping purposes so it is less than that....but by how much ..I can't say.....what is a reasonable weight ...if this was a genuine sword?

Now we get the facts!




Id expect at least half that weight to be packing then! hopefully a lot more!

What weight would you like to fight & fence with one handed & wear on your belt all day as a civilian?

Thats what I would guess a rapier weighs. Very Light in other words.

Spiral

[katana]

Originally Posted by spiral

Now we get the facts!
Id expect at least half that weight to be packing then! hopefully a lot more!
What weight would you like to fight & fence with one handed & wear on your belt all day as a civilian?

Thats what I would guess a rapier weighs. Very Light in other words.

Spiral

Good point Spiral......I wrote down the weight and forgot that it included packing ........at least the sword is looking a little more 'promising'

If it is indeed a 'heavy weight' do you think I could argue that it is a lunar dueling sword......afterall with 1/6 less gravity on the moon, it would suddenly become very light indeed

[Lew]

Throw a few cornish hens on that puppy and give them a good roasting
Looks like a wall hanger to me.

Lew

[spiral]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Throw a few cornish hens on that puppy and give them a good roasting
Looks like a wall hanger to me.

Lew

Sorry to say, Id still take money on Louis kebab theory as the most realistic!

It looks a clumsy tool to me more of a bludgen than a rapier.

Spiral

[katana]

Please Gentlemen .....be easy on me......else I won't invite you round for to my BBQ ...with my new novelty 'spit roast' turner

[spiral]

Beuty in the eye of the beholder & all that!



Spiral

[The Double D]

Man, these guys are brutal! I think they may be wrong it has the appearance of a very rare early Boer braai pattern rapier.

We all are going to look the fools if this turns out to be Jen-U-Wine!

[Jim McDougall]

Despite all the BBQ tool analysis JUDL!! I cant resist throwing in my 2cents on this 'item'.

I am inclined to agree with Marc on the 'Victorian' period assessment, but am wondering if this might be a theatrical weapon. It seems that some of the weapons made for 'period' performances were made sturdily, although not necessarily completely accurate. While this sword is made to appear to be a cuphilt rapier, it is clearly not intended to withstand comparison to the authentic examples. It would however, present the desired effect as part of a costume in a performance.

Just speculation on my part. It seems like many of the so called wallhangers or reproductions for gentlemans parlors during Victorian times at least made viable attempt at a degree of authenticity. Many of these were easily passed off as authentic examples by antique dealers in the 20th century to unwary buyers.

Katana, even if this is a Victorian period sword, for whatever purpose, it still clearly has its own story to tell....

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Despite all the BBQ tool analysis JUDL!! I cant resist throwing in my 2cents on this 'item'.

I am inclined to agree with Marc on the 'Victorian' period assessment, but am wondering if this might be a theatrical weapon. It seems that some of the weapons made for 'period' performances were made sturdily, although not necessarily completely accurate. While this sword is made to appear to be a cuphilt rapier, it is clearly not intended to withstand comparison to the authentic examples. It would however, present the desired effect as part of a costume in a performance.

Katana, even if this is a Victorian period sword, for whatever purpose, it still clearly has its own story to tell....

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim for your 2 cents worth......interesting and imaginative angle
Other than the possible peened pommel, the overall 'crudeness' of the sword's construction 'swayed' me into believing that this might not be 'Victoriana' and hence I took a risk.

My reasoning was that a 'wallhanger' would be more ornate...and accurate.... this sword looked more simplistic and functional. I tried to find similar examples on the web and .....found none.

I began to wonder whether this was a 'blacksmiths' sword.....apparently a number of blacksmiths produced cheaper basic swords during the 17c-18c ( and possibly before and after this period)
I cannot remember the reference (sorry Jim ), but, I was assuming this was common knowledge to collectors of this period. If I can find the reference I will post it. But several examples (pictures) shown were of crude rapiers, I assumed this type were more common because the blade would be easier to forge and would require less 'finishing'.

If it wasn't for those old action/adventure movies of my childhood...I probably wouldn't have had a desire to own a rapier......Damn Errol Flynn and his swashbuckling...... Assuming this sword is a poorly constructed wallhanger I will find a use for it.....perhaps a 'one of a kind' car aerial

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Katana,
You're right, that scoundrel Errol Flynn and all his swashbuckling is what got me into this obsession!!!
I would be interested to know more on the 'blacksmiths' swords. I think this would apply more to much more pedestrian weapons than rapiers though. In Victorian times of course nobody was wearing rapiers around (only sword canes gentlemen!). During the time of the popularity of the rapier, only nobility were permitted (or could afford) such weapons. Yes, even in those days there were strict weapons controls, and there were even restrictions on the length of the blade permitted (some rapiers had blades up to 42", which were I believe outlawed in England if not mistaken).
By the 18th century, the gentry began wearing the smallsword.

I have been working on finding the famed maker of reproductions during the Victorian period and at last found him !
Ernst Schmidt, who had an atelier in Munich from 1870 (until about 1930!), made outstanding examples of Renaissance and Medieval weapons and armour to satisfy the demands of neoclassic romanticists, who wished to embellish thier estates with these items. Even then these weapons were relatively expensive for authentic pieces, so the age of the 'wallhanger' began! Unfortunately, Schmidts work was so convincing, the age of the 'unscrupulous antique weapons dealer' began as well and many hopeful buyers were duped when these items were later resold as original antiques.
A good reference on these:
"Arms and Armor from the Atelier of Ernst Schmidt, Munich" Ed. by E.Anderson Mowbray , 1967 (check with Man at Arms magazine, now run by Stuart Mowbray, and articles on this topic in the magazine as well).

Still think this is likely a theatrical piece, and it would seem done at least somewhat in the style of Schmidt. The pieces I have seen illustrations of seem to favor the upward/downward quillon terminals (which of course were never seen on cuphilts as far as I know).

Best regards,
Jim

[Chris Evans]

Hi Katana,

It is not very clear on the photo, but is that cup welded or brazed to the blade? Almost looks like it has been arc welded....

Cheers
Chris

[katana]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Katana,
You're right, that scoundrel Errol Flynn and all his swashbuckling is what got me into this obsession!!!

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would be interested to know more on the 'blacksmiths' swords. I think this would apply more to much more pedestrian weapons than rapiers though.

.
I'm wondering whether the author may have made assumptions..... perhaps swords of a seemingly functional nature but of lower quality were grouped as 'too good for a wall hanger....not good enough for a swordsmith'. I'm actually thinking that 'theatrical' swords may have entered this catagory......few would associate swords and thespians.......unless you are a Romantic........eh Jim

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Still think this is likely a theatrical piece, and it would seem done at least somewhat in the style of Schmidt. The pieces I have seen illustrations of seem to favor the upward/downward quillon terminals (which of course were never seen on cuphilts as far as I know.
Best regards,
Jim

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

It is not very clear on the photo, but is that cup welded or brazed to the blade? Almost looks like it has been arc welded....

Chris....simply I don't know...but I did noticed the 'join'.....with Jim's comments about the upward/downward terminals which weren't seen as cuphilts......perhaps the cup was a later addition.

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=katana]


.
I'm wondering whether the author may have made assumptions..... perhaps swords of a seemingly functional nature but of lower quality were grouped as 'too good for a wall hanger....not good enough for a swordsmith'. I'm actually thinking that 'theatrical' swords may have entered this catagory......few would associate swords and thespians.......unless you are a Romantic........eh Jim


Spot on , Katana!!!!
Grrr! Blasted cape caught in the door again!!
Best,
Jim

[VANDOO]

AS JIM MENTIONED THE LEGNTH OF RAPIERS WAS RESTRICTED BY ORDER OF THE QUEEN. I CAN PICTURE A MONTY PYTHON LIKE SITUATION AT COURT, I CAN IMAGINE PEOPLE GETTING TRIPPED AND WHACKED WHEN THE GENTELMEN TURNED OR POKED IN THE EYE OR GOOSED WHEN THE GENTELMEN BOWED TO SOMEONE. PERHAPS THE QUEEN HERSELF WAS A VICTIM OF THE DEADLY GOOSE SO BANNED LONG SWORDS IN HER COURT.

IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO BEHAVE IN A PROPER DIGNIFIED ENGLISH MANNER IN SHUCH A SETTING. THUS COURT SWORDS WERE MADE AND BECAME THE RAGE.

[Robert]

Here is a sword that I have that fits into the "what is it" category. This sword was covered in layer after layer of aluminium paint when I bought it. The woman who owned it had let her children and grand children carry it around on Halloween. The wooden grip was so dried out that I put a wood preservative on it (I hope this was not a mistake) to help keep it from getting any worse. Her story was that this was brought back from the Philippines after the Spanish American War with other edged weapons (including one with a long wavy blade as she described it) by her uncle but she had already sold the others when I bought this one. There is engraving on the ferrels and the pommel that look a lot like the engraving on the silver hilted dagger that I posted on the forum. The blade is what I would describe as hollow ground. The blade is 39-5/8 inches long, 3/8 inches thick at its thickest point and 1-13/16 inches wide at its widest point. The hilt is 9-1/2 inches long. I was even told by someone else that it was probably made by Ernst Schmidt. If anyone has any thoughts on this piece please post them as I have been trying to identify it for a couple of years with little luck. The blade is not shiny like it looks in the pictures.

[Andrew]

Is the original sword basically consistent with cup-hilt rapiers dated to 1730?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Andrew,
Actually the cuphilt rapier had essentially given way to the smallsword in most of Europe and England by 1730, however the Spaniards, who remained formidable and extremely tradition swordsmen, still clung to thier cuphilts through the 18th century and even into the 19th.
While this example clearly is not of true cuphilt form, it is an interpretation of one.
One thing I would note at this point (no pun intended is that the 18th century was a period of neoclassicism, revivalism and fashion obsession. There was the traditional mens obsession with dueling, and most certainly various schools of fence were wrought with members of the gentry honing thier skills for the fashionable possibility of the duel.
I think the single hope that this weapon might be a servicable weapon, although it does not seem to have age dating to 1730, may be that it could have been a revival type weapon intended for actual use in sort of a 'mens club' type atmosphere.
There were many of these underground exclusive type organizations, the secret society type with Freemasonry heading the fore. There was acute interest in cabbalism, numerology and many forms of occult practice. One such club that was notorious in England was known as the "hellfire club".

While this suggestion is admittedly 'wild speculation' on my part, and I would suggest that even during Victorian times, there was vivid revivalism that stirred romanticism along with the writing of Scott and others as well as the advent of the 'Gothic' form of novel. Perhaps this interesting piece was one of the type of weapons that became in demand, as illustrated by the work of Ernst Schmidt, even if it is not one of his actual pieces.

We may recall that the German practice of 'duelling' with 'schlagers' with the express intent of receiving battle scars was quite the rage well into the 20th century, in fact I am uncertain but may still be practiced.

Just some food for thought

All the best,
Jim

[Andrew]

Hi Jim:

I thought that, if this piece was generally consistant with cup hilts of the early 18th century, the stamp could simply be a catalogue mark. This would support your theory of a costume piece. Logic would dictate that a good costumer would want to keep weapons and costumes period-correct and.

Best,
Andrew

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Andrew,
Excellent observations! I honestly don't know much about reproductions or these Victorian or theatrical pieces, just that they play havoc with collectors as they have become antiques in thier own right, and they are often hard to tell from actual pieces. One weapon that was actually authentic was dismissed as a fake for many years by suspicious and outright paranoid authorities who had burned too many times by these. It was amazing to see this very converse situation!
Actually Schmidt, and probably others who entered this cottage industry, did not intend to deceive or defraud buyers..it was later owners who tried to pass these off as authentic. What you say seems very possible, that such markings might have alluded to the sword or type the interpretation was taken from, but this sword does not correspond to examples I am aware of, especially not as late as 1730. I think this item was fashioned with a degree of artistic license, as might have been the case in Victorian times as noted.
I am trying to find an article in "Man at Arms" regarding Schmidts work, but digging through almost 25 years of these is true archaeology!!! Andrew Mowbray, the original editor of the magazine, edited a book on Schmidts work back in 1967 (before the magazine began) and did run at least one article that corresponded. It seems quite a few of Schmidts pieces ended up in the J Woodman Higgins museum in Massachusetts, so maybe they might have some data as well.

Its good to hear from you my friend!!!
All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Well Gentleman....the sword has arrived...and provided more questions than answers........

The Rapier sits well in 'the hand', it weighs 2.5 lbs. There is no welding or braising evident anywhere on the sword. The cup hilt has a worn leather disc inside. The arrangement of cross guard and cup hilt 'invites' your index finger to curl around the crossguard behind the 'cup'. This hand position provides greater control of the blade. The balance point is situated approx. 10'' (26cms) from the end of the pommel. Interestingly the exact point at which the doubled false edges start....the blade finishes in a very sharp point. The tang is peened over the pommel. The hilt is slightly 'offset' from the blade and the blade itself is angled (approx. 10 degrees) from the 'centre line'. The overall impression of the construction is that it is a 'solid', no frills, 'useable' piece

Also at the 'ricasso' (?) there are crude markings ....3 dots (in a line)...then a symbol ( two 'C' 's back to back and joined at the curve. similar to the 'Chanel' logo)..and then another three dots in a line. (see diagram below)


I'm beginning to think that this was a practical piece.......perhaps a practice rapier of the Victorian era?

Comments gratefully received .......

[spiral]

Nice realistic fighting weight for a rapier.

I retract my, its a bludgen comment!

Spiral

[katana]

Hi Spiral,
thankyou for your comments.....it seems there are other factors which suggest this is a 'useable' bludgen

Further playing......I mean testing .... the sword (rapier) feels right when excecuting a forward thrust, accurately striking a small target (with very little practice), the point easily penetrates a thick cardboard tube (the type carpets are wound around).

It seems that the CoP is 27" from the pommel (overall length is 41").

The pivot point (explaination below) is approx. 3" from tip ..suggesting a thrusting sword.

The harmonic balance of the sword is approx. 3" above the 'cup'...a thrusting sword, I understand, requires it to be nearer (and sometimes within) the guard....

""Pivot Point: When holding a sword at the top of the grip (where the grip meets the guard), point downward, between thumb and forefinger, move the sword back and forth with gentle movements of the hand. The sword will naturally pivot between your fingers and there should be a spot either along the blade or at the point where the blade seems to remain stationary. This is referred to as the pivot point -- the proper location of the pivot point will vary depending on the purpose of the sword -- a thrusting sword should have a pivot point located at the very tip of the blade point, a cutting sword may have a pivot point close to or corresponding to the CoP."" QUOTED FROM ALBION SWORDS.
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/sword-terms.htm

[katana]

BUMP.......sorry to do this but I wondered if anyone may have any other comments about this 'rapier'.

Its balance and weight suggests it is a useable sword, Jim's suggestion of a theatrical sword is IMHO still a possiblity. Being 'properly weighted' would give the sword an authentic 'movement'.

The possiblity that this was a useable replica owned by a Victorian Fencing School also 'holds water'. Especially when you consider that the 'centre of pecussion' is on an area of the blade that would used to 'parry' an attack and would lessen the vibration felt by the swordsman.

The 'dots and inverted C' markings are crude and look likely to predate the 'anno 1730' on the opposite side.

Also found this image, made in Toledo.......I don't know if this is a period piece or a 'replica'.....however if it is a reproduction....it must of been based on an original?