Indonesian sword ID request

[JeffS]

I haven't found a parang on the forum with a hilt and guard like this, so putting up for identification. Photos are from the seller (I have purchased it). Blade is 52cm.

[milandro]

the seller called it Pedang Portugis

which really seems to be a collective name for anything looking like a sabre or sword with a D guard and reminiscent of a European blade but used in Indonesia from Indonesians but generally based on European blades.

Aside for this particular blade, I found several hits with google but all of them show different blades, so, I can't imagine that the name is one particular type of blade.

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by milandro

the seller called it Pedang Portugis

which really seems to be a collective name for anything looking like a sabre or sword with a D guard and reminiscent of a European blade but used in Indonesia from Indonesians but generally based on European blades.

Aside for this particular blade, I found several hits with google but all of them show different blades, so, I can't imagine that the name is one particular type of blade.

Yes, seems to be a grab bag term, also this is unlikely to be from 16th C! I imagine the D-guard could be colonial influence of Dutch maybe even Spanish or English unless the guard style necessarily indicates Portugese origins. The blade is too widely dispersed in style to give many clues, at least to my eye.

[milandro]

I am intrigued, if you have so many questions and possibly some doubts, why did you buy it? It wasn't particularly cheap, I guess, knowing the shop it came from and including shipping to Singapore + possible custom charges this ends up being a pretty penny.

Of course it is your money and who am I to question any purchase.

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by milandro

I am intrigued, if you have so many questions and possibly some doubts, why did you buy it? It wasn't particularly cheap, I guess, knowing the shop it came from and including shipping to Singapore + possible custom charges this ends up being a pretty penny.

Of course it is your money and who am I to question any purchase.

No worries, happy to share my thinkimg. I thought the price was quite reasonable for a dealer (€250) and I have been getting more interested in colonial influenced SE Asian sword styles which, up to a recently acquired parang beladah, I've avoided. Admittedly a little impulsive, but I enjoy collecting pieces that I know little about as it provides a learning opportunity. At this stage of collecting I tend to focus on variety versus specialization. I don't doubt it is an authentic Indonesian sword, just unsure of origin. True it is painful shipping stuff to Singapore, however I have come to accept as another extra cost to living here.

[milandro]

nice to hear that you also share buying something an a learning opportunity.

I too do that, and my collector's prowess isn't such that I can call myself an expert specialist when I am rather more a generalist.


I think it was unavoidable that many layers of colonial experiences ( some within Asia itself) left many superimpositions of culture and weapons were no different than anything else.

As for the name, that has to be taken with a large pinch of salt and Portugis may have simple meant " foreign" within this context. I just saw a video of a guy (who has hundreds of videos, and at some point he grabs a Dutch Klewang (could have been a 1811 Hembrug) and calls it a " Portuguese weapon"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdvsVqh2aws


So maybe this is as Portuguis a weapon as Turkeys are from Turkey... not.

Nevertheless the way is the goal!

[kai]

As for the name, that has to be taken with a large pinch of salt and Portugis may have simple meant " foreign" within this context.

This would be my guess, too, since the Portuguese were the first Europeans to arrive in the archipelago.

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

Hi Jeff,

I think that's a good looking sword and similar in blade style to some of the locally made precursors of the "Dutch klewang." Hard to say when it was made, but I would guess at late 19th C. You would have a better idea being able to inspect it directly.

Colonially influenced local swords are an interesting topic, and SE Asia is a fertile area to find examples.

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Jeff,

I think that's a good looking sword and similar in blade style to some of the locally made precursors of the "Dutch klewang." Hard to say when it was made, but I would guess at late 19th C. You would have a better idea being able to inspect it directly.

Colonially influenced local swords are an interesting topic, and SE Asia is a fertile area to find examples.

Thank you. Any thoughts on where it is from?

[Sajen]

Nice one Jeff! I would guess a Javanese origin.

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

I assume you're referring to the island of Java as a whole rather than to Tanah Jawa, Detlef?

Anyway, I'd certainly include Sunda and Madura as likely origins. And it could also originate from any other location with heavy European/Dutch influence, I believe.

Pretty nice brass work - looking forward to seeing any similar examples!

Regards,
Kai

[milandro]

then Tjikeroeh has to be one of the possible origins

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

I assume you're referring to the island of Java as a whole rather than to Tanah Jawa, Detlef?

Yes Kai! Including Madura.

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello André,

then Tjikeroeh has to be one of the possible origins

Their steel does look different. And also this kind of brass work would be unusual.

It either predates their main (and marked) production or more likely originates from some other craftsman/area.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

This sword was offered to me privately from Indonesia recently. It was found on Sumba.

[milandro]

I had asword with an almost identical hilt and basket , but that one came almost certainly from Lombok (different blade)

[Ian]

It is interesting to look back in the Archives at some of the precursors of the 'Dutch klewang." Amuk posted these examples, some of which resemble what we are discussing here. This is Figure 9 of his post here:
.

And here's examples of the development of the Maréchaussée sabel, showing early precursors (A,B) with altered versions of the Dutch 1875 cavalry hilt.
.

It appears that several examples shown above, including the OP, may have been early precursors of what was later developed into the Maréchausséee sabel or "Dutch klewang." Some of these precursor resemble Sumatran klewang, and it is documented that the "Dutch klewang" was introduced to address the ongoing unrest in Aceh and to provide troops with a sword that competed favorably with local swords. These precursor swords were developed in the 1880 and 1890s, before the arrival of the military "Dutch klewang." Some were made in Sumatra and possibly some in Java. There is a discussion of these developments in Puype, JP & de Stürler Boekwijt, RJ. Klewang. Catalogus van het Legermuseum (Catalogue of the Dutch Army Museum). KNIL, Landmacht, Zeemacht, Marechaussee en Politie. Royal Netherlands Army and Arms Museum: Delft, 2001, pp 344.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Sajen

This sword was offered to me privately from Indonesia recently. It was found on Sumba.

Silver type, manufacture style, along side of the hilt type, and size, I too feel this is Lombok.... the applied dragon is very atypical though...

I've a Lombok Klewang here, 100% native made that is a faithful mirror of the Dutch types in size, shapes and proportions, but with a subtle differences in the grip shape (which look like a man in prayer), fullering, and that the blade has some personal intricacies, piercings and talismanic markings... sitting is a dark Saracen finish, possibly its original warangan,

[Gavin Nugent]

I see a little similarity in size and regions noted within this image David presented some time ago.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=297

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Silver type, manufacture style, along side of the hilt type, and size, I too feel this is Lombok.... the applied dragon is very atypical though...

Hello Gav,

First I need to say that it will be mamas instead of silver. Origin is unknown but it was found on Sumba. The dragon will be a later addition IMO.

Regards,
Detlef