Enquiry on pamor name

[Anthony G.]

Anyone can advise what is the name of this pamor? Thank you.

[JustYS]

Looks like Unthuk Banyu to me, but I can be wrong.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by JustYS

Looks like Unthuk Banyu to me, but I can be wrong.

Thanks

[A. G. Maisey]

From what I can see, I would give this as Lawe Setukal.

There are many variations of Lawe Setukal.

I have seen something like this named as Untuk Banyu, I think Tammens gives Unthuk Banyu as similar to this.

The other pamor in the center of the base I'd probably give as Sombro.

Would a close up in decent light be possible Anthony?

I'd like to see how the grain of the pamor winds back & forth, the way in which it winds could indicate whether it was intended to be lawe or unthuk.

Edit

I just added the pic. I'm inclined to think it was intended as lawe, but the outside of the bend in the material has been lost. This material in the pamor was turned at 90 degrees to the blade core & then twisted backwards and forth to create the effect of a series of bends.

Unthuk banyu should not be as regular as this, the bends are created laying the strip of material as mlumah and bending away from and then back to the core, and it might be twisted first before the bending is done.

With lawe the strip of material is oriented miring and bent away from the centre of the blade & then back towards the center.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

From what I can see, I would give this as Lawe Setukal.

There are many variations of Lawe Setukal.

I have seen something like this named as Untuk Banyu, I think Tammens gives Unthuk Banyu as similar to this.

The other pamor in the center of the base I'd probably give as Sombro.

Would a close up in decent light be possible Anthony?

I'd like to see how the grain of the pamor winds back & forth, the way in which it winds could indicate whether it was intended to be lawe or unthuk.

Edit

I just added the pic. I'm inclined to think it was intended as lawe, but the outside of the bend in the material has been lost. This material in the pamor was turned at 90 degrees to the blade core & then twisted backwards and forth to create the effect of a series of bends.

Unthuk banyu should not be as regular as this, the bends are created laying the strip of material as mlumah and bending away from and then back to the core, and it might be twisted first before the bending is done.

With lawe the strip of material is oriented miring and bent away from the centre of the blade & then back towards the center.

Hi Alan, thanks for the sharing.

I will study the pattern as what you have wrote here and try to comprehend it. It sound fun and interesting for me to learn the pattern welding.

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Edit

I just added the pic. I'm inclined to think it was intended as lawe, but the outside of the bend in the material has been lost. This material in the pamor was turned at 90 degrees to the blade core & then twisted backwards and forth to create the effect of a series of bends.

Unthuk banyu should not be as regular as this, the bends are created laying the strip of material as mlumah and bending away from and then back to the core, and it might be twisted first before the bending is done.

With lawe the strip of material is oriented miring and bent away from the centre of the blade & then back towards the center.

Thank you Alan for explaining the difference between the 2 pamors.

So is it correct to deduce that pamor Lawe Setukel (miring) is more complex than pamor Unthuk Banyu (mlumah)?

Cheers,

[Jean]

This looks like a new blade to me and the pamor pattern is nice but not clearly defined as per the usual standards... In France we would call it pamor Gloubi-boulga (odd and fictious).
I attach the pic of a recent madurese blade with the pamor pattern identified as Untuk Banyu.

[Jean]

And 2 variations of pamor Lawe Satukel patterns.

[A. G. Maisey]

I wouldn't say that lawe is more or less complex than banyu, they are both complex, manipulated patterns.

What I would say is that there are variations in both patterns, and variations in opinions as to the names of both patterns, as with most things to do with keris, nothing is carved in stone.

Yes, Jean, that blade that Anthony showed us is recent in my opinion also.

YS, unthuk banyu is not a mlumah pamor, when I used the word "mlumah" I was referring to orientation, not to the finished pamor.

Edit

I just reread what I wrote when I used "mlumah", I'm sorry, I was thinking Javanese when I wrote it. The word "mlumah"means to lay on the back with the front, or surface facing up or outwards, so if you take a strip of pamor and bend it back & forth, then you lay it on the blade core in such a way that the back of the pamor is against the blade core, and the surface that will be seen is facing the front, or the outside of the completed blade, then that strip of pamor has been laid "mlumah". This does not mean that it has been laid in a way that will create a mlumah pamor. The base word is "lumah" which means "surface, upper side".

Something else too, I gave this pamor of Anthony's as "Lawe Setukal", that is my opinion based upon the way it has been made and what I have been taught. However, a lot of what I knew to be so back 30, 40, 50 years ago is now not so, names have changed, ways of looking at and thinking about things have changed. I use different names for things depending upon the audience. If I were giving a name for a dhapur or pamor in something I wrote for publication, or, say, a catalogue, I would strive to find the most generally accepted opinion before I went into print, rather than just give my own opinion as I usually do in a Forum post.

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Edit

The word "mlumah"means to lay on the back with the front, or surface facing up or outwards, so if you take a strip of pamor and bend it back & forth, then you lay it on the blade core in such a way that the back of the pamor is against the blade core, and the surface that will be seen is facing the front, or the outside of the completed blade, then that strip of pamor has been laid "mlumah". This does not mean that it has been laid in a way that will create a mlumah pamor. The base word is "lumah" which means "surface, upper side".

Thank you for this further explanation Alan.

So if I understood correctly pamor puntiran (twisted pamor) such as Lawe Setukel or Unthuk Banyu will always be classified as pamor miring regardless how the strip of pamor was laid?

[A. G. Maisey]

YS there are two basic types of pamor construction:-

pamor mlumah and pamor miring

in pamor mlumah the layers of pamor material lay in the same plane as the core of the blade

in pamor miring the layers of pamor material stand at more or less 90 degrees to the plane of the blade

pamor wos wutah is a mlumah pamor and it is the foundation for other pamors where the motif is created by surface manipulation of the pamor material

a billet of unmanipulated mlumah pamor material is also the foundation for pamor motifs that are created by twisting and pamor motifs that are created by bending

in my opinion the best information on how various motifs are created in pattern welding is in a knife makers book:- "The Pattern Welded Blade", the author was Jim Hrisoulas

when Pauzan Pusposukadgo was experimenting with creating pamor motifs he used plasticene to test how various forms of manipulation might produce various pamor motifs. This was in the late 1970's & early 1980's, at that time there was virtually nothing in print to help us, anybody trying to forge weld ferric material and nickel had to work it out for themselves.

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

YS there are two basic types of pamor construction:-

pamor mlumah and pamor miring

in pamor mlumah the layers of pamor material lay in the same plane as the core of the blade

in pamor miring the layers of pamor material stand at more or less 90 degrees to the plane of the blade

pamor wos wutah is a mlumah pamor and it is the foundation for other pamors where the motif is created by surface manipulation of the pamor material

a billet of unmanipulated mlumah pamor material is also the foundation for pamor motifs that are created by twisting and pamor motifs that are created by bending

in my opinion the best information on how various motifs are created in pattern welding is in a knife makers book:- "The Pattern Welded Blade", the author was Jim Hrisoulas

when Pauzan Pusposukadgo was experimenting with creating pamor motifs he used plasticene to test how various forms of manipulation might produce various pamor motifs. This was in the late 1970's & early 1980's, at that time there was virtually nothing in print to help us, anybody trying to forge weld ferric material and nickel had to work it out for themselves.

Thank you Alan, I will try to get this Pattern Welded Blade.

Cheers,

[A. G. Maisey]

YS, it is likely to cost you.

BIG.

I bought my copy immediately it was published, forget when that was, but a long time ago.

Over the last few years I have seen it for sale at anywhere from $US25 to $US1500.

There are other books on pattern welding too, one i've heard of is by somebody called "Schiffer" which is supposedly the Duck's Guts of pattern welding, but i've never seen it.

There are other books too, like Figiel "On Damascus Steel", & Sasche "Damascus Steel" these are very informative books and will help enormously in understanding how pamor patterns are created.

I suggest that a read through this thread might be useful, maybe very useful:-

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/598...mascuspattern/

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

YS, it is likely to cost you.

BIG.

I think the book is still in print. I just ordered a copy on that imfamous online mega-site that put a giant phallus in space. LOL!
Paperback edition is just $36 CAD.

[A. G. Maisey]

$36CAD sounds more than reasonable.

Some of the prices I've seen myself, and have had others tell me about are just purely crazy.

[JustYS]

I've also ordered this book, it cost me 45 USD.

I agreed with Alan the price range of this book is huge, I saw from 25 USD to 225USD I wonder why.

Cheers,

[Bob A]

Originally Posted by JustYS

I've also ordered this book, it cost me 45 USD.

I agreed with Alan the price range of this book is huge, I saw from 25 USD to 225USD I wonder why.

Cheers,

The book appears to have been reprinted in soft covers; that would account for the lower price. The earlier printing in hard covers should see a reduction in price as scarcity no longer drives the cost.

Just ordered a copy for $50 US. The softcovers seem to sell for around $17.