Sword sold as Toureg?? Surely Manding... help please

katana · 22nd May 2006, 02:01 PM

I have just bought this sword, described as Toureg (???) The scabbard seems to be of Manding style, the sword (76cms) has obvious European influences. With the conflict between the Manding people and France, at the end of the 19c, I am hoping that the blade may be a re-hilted French one. More likely, the blade is of local manufacture, the aluminium guard and handle suggests very early 20c onwards.
I have not recieved the sword yet, but I have these pictures.

Please if anyone has any comments or information on similar swords I would appreciate any contribution

Tim Simmons · 22nd May 2006, 07:54 PM

Difficult to tell from the pictures but even though the blade has local decoration I feel it might be European from a machete perhaps?

Zan · 22nd May 2006, 10:50 PM

Hi,

The blade seems heavily grinded, so it will be difficult to judge it's origin. I agree it can be a machete blade, or maybe a recent blade made of spring steel like a lot or West-african swords.

It is the first time I see this kind of aluminium handle. It as both a Tuareg and a European influence, interesting.

The scabbard seems new and the belt is far too short to be functional.

I am eager to see more pictures. Nice sword !

Sincerely,
Zan

Zan · 22nd May 2006, 10:54 PM

If the pictures are not upside-down, it is a left-handed sword

Zan

katana · 23rd May 2006, 10:18 PM

Thankyou, Tim and Zan,
I am alittle confused, I thought the scabbard would be considered Manding.
Zan, you mentioned that the sword had Toureg influences..... please could you explain these influences.
I agree totally that the scabbard certainly looks new.
I personally have not seen an African sword with this type of handle and guard. Is this European style more widespread ( in Africa) than I realised?
Hopefully, I will receive the sword sometime this week, when I do, I'll post more pictures of the blade and handle.

katana · 2nd June 2006, 12:50 PM

Received sword today. Very disappointed... the blade was slightly bent and I was able to straighten it using my fingers.!!!

The blade has to be made of MILD steel, tempered or hardened steel would not have been so easy.
It does have balance, but no sharpened edge, so no 'cut and thrust' ....just the 'thrust'.

So, unless un-tempered blades were commonplace/used this has to be a 'tourist' or copy.
Shame, because other than that it would be an interesting sword.
Please if you have any comments about the above, post them....thankyou.

ADDED INFORMATION. Since posting, I have given the sword a closer inspection, I am now certain this is no 'Tourist' piece... too much 'attention to detail'. The blade geometry looks right...and there is more 'spring' in the blade, than I realised...which (IMHO) leaves several possibilities.

1. It is some sort of dress sword or a sword of office/status
2. The blade has been 'over worked' and its lost it's temper during the heating/quenching process (unlikely)
3. I am totally wrong

(more likely

)

Tim Simmons · 2nd June 2006, 07:39 PM

1. It is part of a mans costume. The blade is symbolic. They are still used as part of dress today. I would not be disappointed, nice scabbard. It is from a living tradition, probably from nomads, for how long will there world continue. To me these are worth consideration as much as other non fighting weapon. It just happens that the handle on this one is not the most attractive to us, but I bet when it was made and in its original setting it was a bobby dazzler.

katana · 2nd June 2006, 08:48 PM

Thanks Tim, according to the seller it was brought back to Belgium in 1960. I suppose I'm a little disappointed as it's not functional. I think on a scale of fish and chips it was just under 10, reasonable?

or not?

Tim Simmons · 2nd June 2006, 09:17 PM

That is quite a few portions so not a bargain but not outlandish either. A good fighting version would take a lot more portions which is sometimes too much to eat in one go.

Zan · 4th June 2006, 05:32 AM

Sorry, I was out of town the past few days.

The Touareg influence is visible in the geometrical motifs of the handle. But I agree that the scabbard is typically Manding.

Don't be disapointed by the non functionnal blade. It is probably a parade sword so the blade is not essential. Tourist sword usually have a more decorated blade in that part of the word. Also, a "soft" blade will not be a good sword even for the least knowledgable tourist, so there is good hope it is a mans costume sword.

An interesting and unique sword.

Zan

katana · 7th June 2006, 09:34 PM

Thankyou Tim and Zan, your comments are appreciated, and I have decided to keep the sword, I've never seen this design before ( for a Taureg sword, dress or otherwise) and its 'grown' on me. I doubt whether it is unique, but certainly very unusual.

22nd May 2006, 02:01 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Sword sold as Toureg?? Surely Manding... help please I have just bought this sword, described as Toureg (???) The scabbard seems to be of Manding style, the sword (76cms) has obvious European influences. With the conflict between the Manding people and France, at the end of the 19c, I am hoping that the blade may be a re-hilted French one. More likely, the blade is of local manufacture, the aluminium guard and handle suggests very early 20c onwards. I have not recieved the sword yet, but I have these pictures. Please if anyone has any comments or information on similar swords I would appreciate any contribution Attached Images

2nd June 2006, 12:50 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Received sword today. Very disappointed... the blade was slightly bent and I was able to straighten it using my fingers.!!! The blade has to be made of MILD steel, tempered or hardened steel would not have been so easy. It does have balance, but no sharpened edge, so no 'cut and thrust' ....just the 'thrust'. So, unless un-tempered blades were commonplace/used this has to be a 'tourist' or copy. Shame, because other than that it would be an interesting sword. Please if you have any comments about the above, post them....thankyou. ADDED INFORMATION. Since posting, I have given the sword a closer inspection, I am now certain this is no 'Tourist' piece... too much 'attention to detail'. The blade geometry looks right...and there is more 'spring' in the blade, than I realised...which (IMHO) leaves several possibilities. 1. It is some sort of dress sword or a sword of office/status 2. The blade has been 'over worked' and its lost it's temper during the heating/quenching process (unlikely) 3. I am totally wrong (more likely ) Last edited by katana; 2nd June 2006 at 02:30 PM. Reason: speling mistukes

2nd June 2006, 07:39 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	1. It is part of a mans costume. The blade is symbolic. They are still used as part of dress today. I would not be disappointed, nice scabbard. It is from a living tradition, probably from nomads, for how long will there world continue. To me these are worth consideration as much as other non fighting weapon. It just happens that the handle on this one is not the most attractive to us, but I bet when it was made and in its original setting it was a bobby dazzler. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 2nd June 2006 at 07:54 PM.

22nd May 2006, 07:54 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Difficult to tell from the pictures but even though the blade has local decoration I feel it might be European from a machete perhaps?

22nd May 2006, 10:50 PM	#3
Zan Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montréal, Province of Québec, Canada Posts: 46	Hi, The blade seems heavily grinded, so it will be difficult to judge it's origin. I agree it can be a machete blade, or maybe a recent blade made of spring steel like a lot or West-african swords. It is the first time I see this kind of aluminium handle. It as both a Tuareg and a European influence, interesting. The scabbard seems new and the belt is far too short to be functional. I am eager to see more pictures. Nice sword ! Sincerely, Zan

22nd May 2006, 10:54 PM	#4
Zan Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montréal, Province of Québec, Canada Posts: 46	If the pictures are not upside-down, it is a left-handed sword Zan

23rd May 2006, 10:18 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thankyou, Tim and Zan, I am alittle confused, I thought the scabbard would be considered Manding. Zan, you mentioned that the sword had Toureg influences..... please could you explain these influences. I agree totally that the scabbard certainly looks new. I personally have not seen an African sword with this type of handle and guard. Is this European style more widespread ( in Africa) than I realised? Hopefully, I will receive the sword sometime this week, when I do, I'll post more pictures of the blade and handle.

2nd June 2006, 08:48 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Tim, according to the seller it was brought back to Belgium in 1960. I suppose I'm a little disappointed as it's not functional. I think on a scale of fish and chips it was just under 10, reasonable? or not?

2nd June 2006, 09:17 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That is quite a few portions so not a bargain but not outlandish either. A good fighting version would take a lot more portions which is sometimes too much to eat in one go.

4th June 2006, 05:32 AM	#10
Zan Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montréal, Province of Québec, Canada Posts: 46	Sorry, I was out of town the past few days. The Touareg influence is visible in the geometrical motifs of the handle. But I agree that the scabbard is typically Manding. Don't be disapointed by the non functionnal blade. It is probably a parade sword so the blade is not essential. Tourist sword usually have a more decorated blade in that part of the word. Also, a "soft" blade will not be a good sword even for the least knowledgable tourist, so there is good hope it is a mans costume sword. An interesting and unique sword. Zan

7th June 2006, 09:34 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thankyou Tim and Zan, your comments are appreciated, and I have decided to keep the sword, I've never seen this design before ( for a Taureg sword, dress or otherwise) and its 'grown' on me. I doubt whether it is unique, but certainly very unusual.